@Casuals , do you think the message has gotten through?

[dspguy]

Nope. If you don't raid, you don't exist to them.

Which is a shame because the playerbase are mostly non-raiders. I'd almost rather they switch things up. Make the raid balanced jobs more like BLU - "content restricted." And give us something new for the rest of the game.

[Mawlzy]

Social as in I need to interact with you in order to play the game. In non-raiding content I don't need to talk to you to play the game, some content even disables your ability to communicate when you play (Crystalline Conflict).

Right. I doubt I would've tolerated SE's slip-ups as long as I did if I didn't have an FC with friends (all of whom have now unsubbed). Our social interaction would include taking a multi-seater mount to watch the sunset at Costa del Sol, discussing if Mikel Arteta was a human being or a Thunderbird Puppet.

Again, you've just shifted the vagaries of "social" to "interaction." Am I not interacting with 71 other players when I play a Frontline match? Certainly not something I can do in a single-player game.

A few years ago, Josh Strife Hayes (who has probably played more MMOs than anyone) put out a fascinating video on how "solo players" are required for MMOs to survive. It's a pity more people haven't watched it.

And you can communicate in CC. There is a lot more to communication than someone yelling "cleave right" on vc.

[Auro_Seldaris]

We're in the "Roman Reigns-push" era of FFXIV

(and I mean the "Big Dog" version of Roman, not the Tribal Chief)

This was basically an era in WWE where the creative team decided to make Roman Reigns the face of the company and the Universal Champion, despite the fact that almost all of their fans hated him at the time, largely because he couldn't cut promos (talk in-character) and didn't really know how to sell the illusion of pro wrestling. But, just like CSIII, they thought they knew best and did it regardless of what their fans thought, they made every decision possible to push the angle until it was almost too late to recover.

And yes, I do view Wuk Lamat as the "Roman Reigns" of FFXIV, but that's not actually my point.

My point is to describe the same sort of "we know better than you, fans" stubbornness that was going on behind the scenes in the WWE is also the same kind of stubbornness that Yoshida and co. have slipped into in regards to this game.

[Volgia]

Like I also said in my initial post... People were actually wanting -- and expecting to have a reason to play the game.

When I say, people get surprised this is an MMO is because any attempt to step-up the difficulty, the grind or to strengthen it as an MMO is met with anger from the community.

As an example I cited a lot, Leveling Dungeons were slightly faster, and one single expert had a creative and funny boss fight in the beginning, people were angry at Yoshi P catering towards the HARDCORES, because he said before DT came out that he was getting inspired by Elden Ring. IDK if it's an MMO or a 14 player thing, but people are super reactionary, it makes the conversations around this game really hard to engage in.

All the systems you described and remember so fondly if implemented today would make the community stomp their feet in rage. I know that I used to like the systems that were in place in Stormblood, but my friends who joined during the ShB drought think I'm a boomer talking nonsense when I mention how butchered the game became after Shadowbringers. They think that all of this was just an improvement.

[0blivion]

nothing useful to contribute other than the following: crafting will always be macro glurge.

[Altina_Orion]

When I say, people get surprised this is an MMO is because any attempt to step-up the difficulty, the grind or to strengthen it as an MMO is met with anger from the community.

As an example I cited a lot, Leveling Dungeons were slightly faster, and one single expert had a creative and funny boss fight in the beginning, people were angry at Yoshi P catering towards the HARDCORES, because he said before DT came out that he was getting inspired by Elden Ring. IDK if it's an MMO or a 14 player thing, but people are super reactionary, it makes the conversations around this game really hard to engage in.

All the systems you described and remember so fondly if implemented today would make the community stomp their feet in rage. I know that I used to like the systems that were in place in Stormblood, but my friends who joined during the ShB drought think I'm a boomer talking nonsense when I mention how butchered the game became after Shadowbringers. They think that all of this was just an improvement.

To be frank, I think casuals are babied so much by yoshi-p that they never gain a skill level beyond what you'd expect of someone in sastasha. It's actually pathetic when I see people die 3-4 times on an expert dungeon boss which is still very casual. People have no idea what their abilities do, don't know how to read cast bars, and expect people to carry them though the game. "normal mode" is absolutely the equivalent of story mode in other games, a mode designed to push players through the story with very little resistance. Yet people with 1000+ hours into the game still can't dodge a floor AOE or keep more than 50% ABC.

[Mawlzy]

To be frank, I think casuals are babied so much by yoshi-p that they never gain a skill level beyond what you'd expect of someone in sastasha. It's actually pathetic when I see people die 3-4 times on an expert dungeon boss which is still very casual. People have no idea what their abilities do, don't know how to read cast bars, and expect people to carry them though the game. "normal mode" is absolutely the equivalent of story mode in other games, a mode designed to push players through the story with very little resistance. Yet people with 1000+ hours into the game still can't dodge a floor AOE or keep more than 50% ABC.

More evidence that the game needs skill sliders or a dual-track.

You don't want to play with the babies. They do not want to play with you.

Incidentally, if one accepts that skill is something one gains through practice (which I do up to a point; there are also massive intrinsic skill variations in a MMO player pool), you might solve your puzzlement by realizing how little instanced PvE one is compelled to do in this game. For those of us who play each MSQ dungeon/trial once, we get hardly any practice at all.

This is also why I would like to see Duty Support extended to all required content. I don't want to be a burden on the players who are good at PvE, yet I am compelled to play those awful 8-man MSQ things with other players.

[Lorika]

This.

The next expansion needs to, basically, be Shadowbringers II. They really can't afford for it to be anything less than exceptional.

It's not a popular opinion but ShB wasn't exceptional
The first thing that pop in my mind when i think about it is a "bland square"
Meaning : everything is well executed and polished but it has no soul. The story is well writen with a good pacing but it doesn't delivers emotion like with HW. The gameplay is good and polished but isn't as fun and engaging as SB patchs.
Overal it's well done but, for me it was really the confirmation of the decline after SB started it.

[Mikitan]

Doesn't feel super great as a person who plays MMOS to try and handle social anxiety, having to get in random discords to do anything with anything (I soloed all of Crescent before this tower thing... why cant I just hit a button to que in like bozja? I could be a silent follower learning from others, no discord required. What was so wrong with that? All these people's sub money going to those 400 clears of tower... man that's like the biggest $$$ to player ratio I think I've ever heard of. Would be nice if my sub money went to something I could participate in, just saying. (my warrior set for crescent 100% made, bard set halfway, butr alas, this was wasted time, forked tower is for poeople who can talk and perform, silly me solo grinding all that gear... I WAS PLAYING WRONG YOSHI FORGIVE ME FOR TOUCHING RAIDER CONTENT)

Also while I can function, barely, in these disco-ball lvl100 dungeons. But I get overwhelmed, I get shamed for dying over and over (Your healer rez macro is not cute the 10th time, it feels like you are mocking me) and yoiu know... the top couple categories on the random dungeon finder might as well be deleted to me. I associate them with failure, anxiety, shame. I just wanna kill some monsters man, not play seizure DDR where "YOU ARE TOO LATE IF YOU ARE IN RED SO WHY IS THERE RED AT ALL". Its fun doing world content I guess but it gets a bit dead feeling when you do fates for hours and never see anyone else (if you arent in a raid or a discord, you are falling behind silly!)

[Altina_Orion]

Doesn't feel super great as a person who plays MMOS to try and handle social anxiety, having to get in random discords to do anything with anything (I soloed all of Crescent before this tower thing... why cant I just hit a button to que in like bozja? I could be a silent follower learning from others, no discord required. What was so wrong with that? All these people's sub money going to those 400 clears of tower... man that's like the biggest $$$ to player ratio I think I've ever heard of. Would be nice if my sub money went to something I could participate in, just saying. (my warrior set for crescent 100% made, bard set halfway, butr alas, this was wasted time, forked tower is for poeople who can talk and perform, silly me solo grinding all that gear... I WAS PLAYING WRONG YOSHI FORGIVE ME FOR TOUCHING RAIDER CONTENT)

Also while I can function, barely, in these disco-ball lvl100 dungeons. But I get overwhelmed, I get shamed for dying over and over (Your healer rez macro is not cute the 10th time, it feels like you are mocking me) and yoiu know... the top couple categories on the random dungeon finder might as well be deleted to me. I associate them with failure, anxiety, shame. I just wanna kill some monsters man, not play seizure DDR where "YOU ARE TOO LATE IF YOU ARE IN RED SO WHY IS THERE RED AT ALL". Its fun doing world content I guess but it gets a bit dead feeling when you do fates for hours and never see anyone else (if you arent in a raid or a discord, you are falling behind silly!)

Bosses literally tell you what they are going to do in their cast bar, so anticipate mechanics. Why complain that you are standing in bad when you are not making an attempt to learn how fights work? There are very few people complaining that dungeons or even normal raids are too hard.