Dear SE: Please listen to actual players, not just content creators

[Hanzz96]

Except that the challenge of modern FFXIV PvE combat design is more akin to memorizing the first ten-thousand digits of Pi and being able to recite them back without fail, on demand, repeatedly.

It's a feat, to be sure, but relatively few find it fun and rewarding to pull it off themselves.

That a load of rubbish.

There are plenty of players who enjoy raiding and find it enjoyable but you casuals cannot fathom that some people enjoy getting better at a hobby they love instead of having everything handed to them while crying that they want to relax.

Its nothing at all like learning Pi or anything hard. You go in. You die a lot. And you learn and improve throughout progression until you can cross that hurdle and when you do it feels good!

[Valence]

Wow, for the first time, you get it, you absolutely get it, almost. You were so close...

It's about the challenge, the struggle, the journey, overcoming a hurdle, an impasse, a learning opportunity, about being better at the end of it and being rewarded for it.

Like in life, you struggle, you fail, once, twice, a lot of times, but if you don't give up in the end, you get it. You persevere, and you never expect things to be handed to you on a silver platter because you exist.

And according to you, that's the only model that breeds shelf life and replayability?

[Kohashi]

depends if you look at time investement or difficulty.
people tend to mix up these two things (or at least dont clarify what they mean) so it leads to people talking about two different things. which of course means any discussion about it will be meaningless xD

To be fair, complexity is completely irrelevant and hard to quantify since it's based on everyone's ability to adapt and learn/apply knowledge in the long run.
Anyone can clear it if they invest enough time. The only real, stable, quantifiable measurement is time.

If you sit in Limsa/ logged in the game/posting in the forums for 10 hrs/ day(random example), you are hardcore no matter what you do. The difference is how you are using the time.

And according to you, that's the only model that breeds shelf life and replayability?

And what kind of content is that? One that has a good drop rate, respectful of your time, but is still grindy enough to keep you busy in between?
Also, you don't have to invest time, nor spend hours figuring it out, or is it punishing because we can't have people memorizing patterns, that's boring stuff.
Did we ever have such content at any point in time? Is it even feasible?

[Volgia]

Casual Players Aren’t Asking for Easy, Just Accessible:

The thing is, casual players aren’t asking for the game to be “easy” or watered down. We want content that’s accessible, enjoyable, and rewarding at our own pace. Some of us want to experience the story, engage in social content, or explore without the pressure of knowing we have to be the best or memorize hundreds of mechanics for a raid.

To me I always scratch my head at this , responding to the "we want content that's accessible, enjoyable, rewarding at our own pace ...", that's literally how the game is designed. But if your pace is exhausting all the content in place you aren't playing this game casually, you just don't enjoy the rest of the content available to you.

[Kaurhz]

I would say with non-PvE content...

The problem is that it is too accessible, and you end up being done with it far far too quickly for it to actually feel like any substance, meaning or accomplishment at all.

Maybe it's a curse of knowledge type thing... But I look at non-PvE content and just go... "Really?"...

I often ask myself the question on who they are actually designing it for, really... Because, it's like they are designing much of the non-PvE side around people that don't actually want to engage with it.

[Mawlzy]

I would say with non-PvE content...

The problem is that it is too accessible, and you end up being done with it far far too quickly for it to actually feel like any substance, meaning or accomplishment at all.

Maybe it's a curse of knowledge type thing... But I look at non-PvE content and just go... "Really?"...

I often ask myself the question on who they are actually designing it for, really... Because, it's like they are designing much of the non-PvE side around people that don't actually want to engage with it.

Or the issue is that, other than PvP, it's not very good.

But when it comes to accessibility, the three novel bits of content in 7.X illustrate why those who don't focus on PvE are so pissed off.

Chaotic Alliance Raid. That sounds cool! Revisiting that mean ol' Cloud of Darkness. Mebbe there'll be a new twist on getting swallowed by Cerberus! At least we'll see more mechanics from the different bosses! Ah no. It's not an alliance raid at all. It's a single boss fight. And somehow the mysterious hand of the gods swept down (again) and made it way more difficult that the devs wanted it, hahaha, oh well.

Occult Crescent. Awesome! Overworld content! Except the primary reason to grind the overworld is to get into Forked Tower, which like CAR has punishing body checks and requires a level of organization comparable to storming the beaches of Normandy.

Cosmic Exploration. Okay, this is the stuff for non-PvEers! A cooperative process involving crafting and gathering and special fun events! Wait, what? Levequests!? Running around for 40 minutes clicking on things!? And where's the cooperation? I'm just gathering and crafting stuff on my own. Also, what exactly are we doing here, on the least attractive landscape possibly ever? We're building a massive base to house... a tiny spaceship. Helping those irritating, buck-toothed rodents who built Bestways Burrow and enough living space to house the entire population of the planet, but apparently they can't handle a few rocks and sponges that pop up inexplicably every 20 minutes? Oh, and by the way, the moon is a fucking spaceship, so why do we need all this infrastructure for a tin can 1/10000000 the size of the Ragnarok?

[Valence]

Oh, and by the way, the moon is a fucking spaceship, so why do we need all this infrastructure for a tin can 1/10000000 the size of the Ragnarok?

B-but what about the tides on Etheirys? Did you think of the tides??

why aren't we using the Ragnarok anyway Oh wait no, they wouldn't be able to explain why it still shows in Ultima Thule or Labyrinthos...

[Mawlzy]

B-but what about the tides on Etheirys? Did you think of the tides??

why aren't we using the Ragnarok anyway Oh wait no, they wouldn't be able to explain why it still shows in Ultima Thule or Labyrinthos...

Valence, that is hysterical. I am a retired theoretical astrophysicist and it was the first thing I worried about when the mobile moon first cropped up. (And don't get me started on Dalamud.)

But given the game breaks every other planetary reality, such as day-night cycles dependent on latitude/longitude, seasons, and the shadow and atmospheric incompatibilities on the moon, I decided the answer probably had something to do with aether.

[Kaurhz]

Or the issue is that, other than PvP, it's not very good.

But when it comes to accessibility, the three novel bits of content in 7.X illustrate why those who don't focus on PvE are so pissed off.

Chaotic Alliance Raid. That sounds cool! Revisiting that mean ol' Cloud of Darkness. Mebbe there'll be a new twist on getting swallowed by Cerberus! At least we'll see more mechanics from the different bosses! Ah no. It's not an alliance raid at all. It's a single boss fight. And somehow the mysterious hand of the gods swept down (again) and made it way more difficult that the devs wanted it, hahaha, oh well.

Occult Crescent. Awesome! Overworld content! Except the primary reason to grind the overworld is to get into Forked Tower, which like CAR has punishing body checks and requires a level of organization comparable to storming the beaches of Normandy.

Cosmic Exploration. Okay, this is the stuff for non-PvEers! A cooperative process involving crafting and gathering and special fun events! Wait, what? Levequests!? Running around for 40 minutes clicking on things!? And where's the cooperation? I'm just gathering and crafting stuff on my own. Also, what exactly are we doing here, on the least attractive landscape possibly ever? We're building a massive base to house... a tiny spaceship. Helping those irritating, buck-toothed rodents who built Bestways Burrow and enough living space to house the entire population of the planet, but apparently they can't handle a few rocks and sponges that pop up inexplicably every 20 minutes? Oh, and by the way, the moon is a fucking spaceship, so why do we need all this infrastructure for a tin can 1/10000000 the size of the Ragnarok?

I mean I don't disagree, but it's not really a single issue, but I do strongly think much of it does stem from being too accessible where the substance of it is actually lost for anyone that wants to actually play the game, and it just feels like they design these systems for people that actually don't want to play or invest in it... Hence why you have systems that are:
a) A glorified levequest.
b) Glorified Collectables.
c) Outright abandoned and gutted in favor of catering to people that actually don't want to engage with them.

Non-PvE content has actually been a gigantic part of my gameplay for the last decade, and I've just seen these systems have any depth and meaning stripped out of them, in favor of trying to appeal to people that don't actually want to engage with these systems.. Like it's great and all having things like Cosmic Exploration or Ishgard Restoration (or Expert Recipes), but it's built on top of an utterly gutted out crafting system. Simplicity is fine (Which is where Stormblood was), but when you oversimplify, then there's only so fun a system can be tbh.

[Asari5]

depends if you look at time investement or difficulty.
people tend to mix up these two things (or at least dont clarify what they mean) so it leads to people talking about two different things. which of course means any discussion about it will be meaningless xD