Please do not streamline deep dungeons

[Valence]

Everything in the game has slowly been reduced to be in service of the same pve encounter model in the recent expansions. It's bosses in a circular arena (or squared if the devs feel particularly daring). It's encounters where it's all about dodging rote memorization of patterns that will oneshot ko.

Eureka Orthos already showed a lot of signs pointing in this direction, in contrast to Palace and Heaven. I do believe this is not a good thing for the game for multiple reasons:

1) It removes content variety and homogenizes all pve across all types of contents, and deep dungeons have been one of the few pieces of content with very unique mechanics, making use of more traditional roguelite and FF rpg mechanics (petrify, slow, heavy etc) that I would find extremely damageable to see gone to the profit of what we already have everywhere else in dungeons, trials and raids.

2) This seems to reduce the difficulty of solo runs (according to solo aficionados), while in my experience it dramatically inflates the difficulty for full party runs of optional floors, which harms the content's accessibility at a more casual level (aka, not solo parties).

With the hope that the next deep dungeon proves not only creative sure, but also actually preserves its core values and doesn't fall for the rampant homogenization that's been taken hold in pve in this game.

Thank you.

[Connor]

Devs (probably): ‘but how else will we make Deep Dungeon appeal to people who don’t like Deep Dungeon?!’

[GainsGoblin]

Does anyone honestly like deep dungeons? They don't get any fun until very late (multiple hours in) and the fun ends if you make a single mistake, the same nonsense as Forked Tower where you have to put several hours aside and schedule a discord run in advance for a single pity pull. Leveling is just 21-30 spam despite having 100 floors, same for aetherpool leveling. Eureka Orthos was basically DOA content, people sometimes even forget it existed in Endwalker.

They don't need to be streamlined, they need a complete rework and they need to stop listening to the few content creators who run this content 24/7 for some unknown reason - the content is deader than disco

[Valence]

I don't do them solo much so I can't speak for the crowd that loves this, but there is definitely a dedicated niche for that and I can see why, there is a lot of decisions and things to manage carefully while running them solo, and it's unforgiving for the people that also look for a challenge.
I do agree that the leveling sections are boring and tedious, and that's exactly for similar reasons that normal dungeons can also be a snoozefest. I do however enjoy the semi casual experience they offer in optional higher floors.
I also do agree they need a shake up to make them more engaging, but this cannot come at the cost of their identity and niche which prompted this thread.

[ThurinTurambar]

Does anyone honestly like deep dungeons? They don't get any fun until very late (multiple hours in) and the fun ends if you make a single mistake, the same nonsense as Forked Tower where you have to put several hours aside and schedule a discord run in advance for a single pity pull. Leveling is just 21-30 spam despite having 100 floors, same for aetherpool leveling. Eureka Orthos was basically DOA content, people sometimes even forget it existed in Endwalker.

They don't need to be streamlined, they need a complete rework and they need to stop listening to the few content creators who run this content 24/7 for some unknown reason - the content is deader than disco

There is clearly enough people playing the content for SE to make another edition, so the comment about content being dead is bit funny.

Deep dungeons are not meant to be primarly leveling, thats a secondary effect.
People actually do find them fun, some just do it once for the fancy title, some stay for longer and do scoring or challenge runs.
While i agree that aetherpool is bit outdated and would use some rework, its not terrible either.

Also curious how you think devs should not listen to content creators, while biggest of them are also guide makers and are intimitely acquainted with how a new player feels about the deep dungeons as well as how veterans do.
Another thing is that there wasnt a single person suggesting the problematic changes that EO introduced.


Let me throw a curveball here:
Does anyone actually like savage/ultimate raiding? They stop being fun after 30 minutes of wiping and you only get something out of it (multiple hours in) after you perform flawlessly one time after many many wipes.

[ThurinTurambar]

I feel like generally if they adjusted some hp distribution and maybe mob damage from EO it would be sorta fine?
Late telegraphs on lethal aoes are also not the best thing they came up with, but id take more animation telegraph like the crocodyle patrols raising up their arm for a cone etc.

What i would really like to see is some creativity, bigger attention on the exploration part:
-enviromental variables like acid puddles, maybe something akin to crystals in dzamael darkhold?
-multiple exits that could boost a chance of certain floor enchantments - for example you open red exit early but it has higher chance for gloom, but you have to take it cuz blue exit is blocked by tresure room.
-something like jump puzzle?
-more run defining items, something similar to phantom job maybe? You find a shard that unlocks a decently useful power that lasts longer?
-interesting rare spawns, something more engaging than dread beasts. Idk maybe once u find a fairy that gives you buff, but on other floor you are stalked by a dangerous elite mob?


I would not be opposed to streamlining the more technical aspecs. Stuff like sustaining potions and ways of accquireing them, aetherpool and grips etc.
The whole menu could be done better (why do i have to click 5 things to go in solo??) and the whole ordeal with save slots is tedious.

[Mesarthim]

Does anyone honestly like deep dungeons? They don't get any fun until very late (multiple hours in) and the fun ends if you make a single mistake, the same nonsense as Forked Tower where you have to put several hours aside and schedule a discord run in advance for a single pity pull. Leveling is just 21-30 spam despite having 100 floors, same for aetherpool leveling. Eureka Orthos was basically DOA content, people sometimes even forget it existed in Endwalker.

They don't need to be streamlined, they need a complete rework and they need to stop listening to the few content creators who run this content 24/7 for some unknown reason - the content is deader than disco

If people disliked deep dungeons I among many others wouldn't be tri-solo title holders. Though Orthos was easily my least favorite of the three.

They aren't dead, people like me just don't do parties. Maybe occasionally duo with a friend.

[PercibelTheren]

Does anyone honestly like deep dungeons? They don't get any fun until very late (multiple hours in) and the fun ends if you make a single mistake, the same nonsense as Forked Tower where you have to put several hours aside and schedule a discord run in advance for a single pity pull. Leveling is just 21-30 spam despite having 100 floors, same for aetherpool leveling. Eureka Orthos was basically DOA content, people sometimes even forget it existed in Endwalker.

They don't need to be streamlined, they need a complete rework and they need to stop listening to the few content creators who run this content 24/7 for some unknown reason - the content is deader than disco

I like them. I run them with a group of 3 friends weekly. They sometimes force us to use spells we otherwise don't get to employ, like Sleep. Stuns and interrupts are genuinely meaningful. Stuff like Echo Drops are useful when you step into a trap. It's also been a nice opportunity for me to "test drive" new jobs before taking them into actual dungeons.

That being said, Eureka Orthos is miserable. The lower floor mobs have way too much HP. Everything can oneshot you. The pomanders aren't as interesting as in previous deep dungeons. Combined with the fact that it gives very little XP, I'm not a fan. As I have stated before, Raha needs to clean his own basement, preferably with a nuke.

[Valence]

I feel like generally if they adjusted some hp distribution and maybe mob damage from EO it would be sorta fine?
Late telegraphs on lethal aoes are also not the best thing they came up with, but id take more animation telegraph like the crocodyle patrols raising up their arm for a cone etc.

What i would really like to see is some creativity, bigger attention on the exploration part:
-enviromental variables like acid puddles, maybe something akin to crystals in dzamael darkhold?
-multiple exits that could boost a chance of certain floor enchantments - for example you open red exit early but it has higher chance for gloom, but you have to take it cuz blue exit is blocked by tresure room.
-something like jump puzzle?
-more run defining items, something similar to phantom job maybe? You find a shard that unlocks a decently useful power that lasts longer?
-interesting rare spawns, something more engaging than dread beasts. Idk maybe once u find a fairy that gives you buff, but on other floor you are stalked by a dangerous elite mob?


I would not be opposed to streamlining the more technical aspecs. Stuff like sustaining potions and ways of accquireing them, aetherpool and grips etc.
The whole menu could be done better (why do i have to click 5 things to go in solo??) and the whole ordeal with save slots is tedious.

I'd like some of those features yes.

I'd also like some actual UI on their part even though XIV has always been stuck twenty years in the past when it comes to ergonomics. I'd like to have a bestiary, where every time you fight a new monster and see its moves, or try things against it, it unveils what abilities it has and what it does resist against (stuns, sleep etc, because it frankly feels like shit to have a wiki page open on the side to keep tabs on what monsters do). And not only you'd access the full version in said bestiary, you'd also have a small interface above the monster that shows those resists in real time, only showing "?" when it's the first time you meet the mob, but then displaying the actual resists or weaknesses (please introduce weaknesses SE) once you have actually prodded the mob with your abilities.

-> Example: first time you meet a chimera, you can only see multiple ? ? ? above it because you have no idea what it does. You start hitting the mob, try a sleep, it has no effect, and suddenly one of the ? turns into an icon that says sleep resistant (it also gets added to the bestiary). Chimera casts Dragon's Voice, it also gets added to the bestiary under the chimera entry. Suddenly you hit with interrupt, and it shows an interrupt icon under vulnerabilities, which idk, makes the stun last twice as long, or actually deals damage, or triggers a slow, idk.

[ThurinTurambar]

I'd like some of those features yes.

I'd also like some actual UI on their part even though XIV has always been stuck twenty years in the past when it comes to ergonomics. I'd like to have a bestiary, where every time you fight a new monster and see its moves, or try things against it, it unveils what abilities it has and what it does resist against (stuns, sleep etc, because it frankly feels like shit to have a wiki page open on the side to keep tabs on what monsters do). And not only you'd access the full version in said bestiary, you'd also have a small interface above the monster that shows those resists in real time, only showing "?" when it's the first time you meet the mob, but then displaying the actual resists or weaknesses (please introduce weaknesses SE) once you have actually prodded the mob with your abilities.

-> Example: first time you meet a chimera, you can only see multiple ? ? ? above it because you have no idea what it does. You start hitting the mob, try a sleep, it has no effect, and suddenly one of the ? turns into an icon that says sleep resistant (it also gets added to the bestiary). Chimera casts Dragon's Voice, it also gets added to the bestiary under the chimera entry. Suddenly you hit with interrupt, and it shows an interrupt icon under vulnerabilities, which idk, makes the stun last twice as long, or actually deals damage, or triggers a slow, idk.

tbh i love the bestiary idea, would be so nice to have the data in a neat ingame form and not rely on external websites when needing to check something. Would also incentivise you to play different jobs to 'collect them all', maybe with a little achievement for it. Could even have a neat title like "Biology Expert" or something similar.