New Player Etiquette

[Mawlzy]

The issue with the mentality of someone should know how to play their class is that the game doesn't give you any reason at all to improve. The story dungeons are very easy yes but the idea of pulling wall to wall is a player created one.
Then you add the fact that in general, people are afraid to give advice in fear of being banned for whatever reason.
So I 100% believe that someone can go even all the way to LVL 100 without someone telling them to pull wall to wall.

And let's not forget that some people just don't want to improve. They're just having fun going at their slow speed. And they have the right to. We're all paying customers afterall.

I'd modify that a bit to "people have reached their skill cap given the amount of time they wish to devote to PvE," but I basically agree.

This whole idea of everyone meeting a PvE skill threshold is completely misplaced. It comes from action-combat RPGs and has no place in a MMORPG. Particularly one in which PvE is poorly-designed and repetitive.

And yet somehow it has become the dominant ideology in FFXIV.

[ChrysOCE]

And yet somehow it has become the dominant ideology in FFXIV.

I would say the dominant ideology is rather that everyone can play as they like. I think you have seen that attitude in both PVP and PVE.

[Mawlzy]

I would say the dominant ideology is rather that everyone can play as they like. I think you have seen that attitude in both PVP and PVE.

Maybe it's better to say there are two competing ideologies that are yet another major cause of friction between players. It's one reason I advocate for a dual-difficulty system in all required PvE content.

The situation in PvP seems to me different, in that there is a minority of players in Frontline whose "playstyle" is a ToS violation.

[ChrysOCE]

Maybe it's better to say there are two competing ideologies that are yet another major cause of friction between players. It's one reason I advocate for a dual-difficulty system in all required PvE content.

The situation in PvP seems to me different, in that there is a minority of players in Frontline whose "playstyle" is a ToS violation.

There is a minority of players who actively play that way. But there are enough players that seem to not care/tolerate/excuse it. So the ideology "let them play as they want" seems to be wider.

Ultimately, people can claim it is elitist or un-empathic or whatever else they want to describe it as, I will still expect tanks to w2w in later content. Yes, we are all paying customers. Myself included. So as much as people want to say to consider those players who want to take it slow, it goes the other way too.

[YovelaLindswood]

I'd modify that a bit to "people have reached their skill cap given the amount of time they wish to devote to PvE," but I basically agree.

This whole idea of everyone meeting a PvE skill threshold is completely misplaced. It comes from action-combat RPGs and has no place in a MMORPG. Particularly one in which PvE is poorly-designed and repetitive.

And yet somehow it has become the dominant ideology in FFXIV.

If its poorly designed and repetitive it shouldn't be that hard to pick up though. Like tanking in xiv took me so little time to pick up compared to other games. The skill floor to be an effective tank is so low there's really no excuse. People just don't want to put in the small amount of effort it takes to learn their role and blame others for their poor performance. Any other mmo has a minimum skill threshold. If you cant play in gw2 you cause deaths and get removed. If you cant play in wow you get removed. Everquest, runescape etc. The idea that you shouldn't be held to a standard and can sandbag anyone you want cuz feels is toxic af. Stop being a selfish player and contribute to your games community. This toxic casuality is exactly why people are leaving for other games in droves.

[Mawlzy]

If its poorly designed and repetitive it shouldn't be that hard to pick up though. Like tanking in xiv took me so little time to pick up compared to other games. The skill floor to be an effective tank is so low there's really no excuse. People just don't want to put in the small amount of effort it takes to learn their role and blame others for their poor performance. Any other mmo has a minimum skill threshold. If you cant play in gw2 you cause deaths and get removed. If you cant play in wow you get removed. Everquest, runescape etc. The idea that you shouldn't be held to a standard and can sandbag anyone you want cuz feels is toxic af. Stop being a selfish player and contribute to your games community. This toxic casuality is exactly why people are leaving for other games in droves.

Absurd claims require evidence.

[Gurgeh]

...

Yes 100%. I finally got better when I hit expert roul because I was finally getting 'feedback' on my play from the game. Remember I don't use ACT to cheat my way to improving my game play.
Then i didn't get better at normals and Alliances... until I started doing Exs in Endwalker.
100% it's about the game teaching you when you are getting it right , making you ask questions, by knocking your arse on the floor when you get it wrong. (24 man body checks teaches almost F all)

[Thurmnmurmn]

If its poorly designed and repetitive it shouldn't be that hard to pick up though. Like tanking in xiv took me so little time to pick up compared to other games. The skill floor to be an effective tank is so low there's really no excuse. People just don't want to put in the small amount of effort it takes to learn their role and blame others for their poor performance. Any other mmo has a minimum skill threshold. If you cant play in gw2 you cause deaths and get removed. If you cant play in wow you get removed. Everquest, runescape etc. The idea that you shouldn't be held to a standard and can sandbag anyone you want cuz feels is toxic af. Stop being a selfish player and contribute to your games community. This toxic casuality is exactly why people are leaving for other games in droves.

If you truly think that inneficient gameplay is toxic. Congrats! You're fitting the description of a toxic elitist.
But in all seriousness. Casuals are not the reason people are leaving. People are leaving because SE can't innovate anything at all and they butchered any individuality or complexity in jobs.

[0blivion]

Listen, there are level 70 healers standing still and only casting if someone is not topped up. That's not a matter of being bad at the game, that's laziness. You can be awful at the game and even some of the worst tanks I've seen would usually get better when they tried. Dungeons (that are not Criterion!) are content that require zero, and I mean zero skill. A literal 12-year-old could do most of them. You get drip fed easy mechanics from level 1 to 50, by 60 you should know most basics. By 70 you should absolutely be able to know most basic shit, and refusal to do so is honestly just expecting others to carry you through content. Hell, I am godawful at AST but I still press more buttons than round 4 of "oh but my primary job is healing" Andy who doesn't wanna weave after a GCD even though they made everything have a weave slot.

[Mawlzy]

Listen, there are level 70 healers standing still and only casting if someone is not topped up. That's not a matter of being bad at the game, that's laziness. You can be awful at the game and even some of the worst tanks I've seen would usually get better when they tried. Dungeons (that are not Criterion!) are content that require zero, and I mean zero skill. A literal 12-year-old could do most of them. You get drip fed easy mechanics from level 1 to 50, by 60 you should know most basics. By 70 you should absolutely be able to know most basic shit, and refusal to do so is honestly just expecting others to carry you through content. Hell, I am godawful at AST but I still press more buttons than round 4 of "oh but my primary job is healing" Andy who doesn't wanna weave after a GCD even though they made everything have a weave slot.

You understand that a 12 year-old is far more able to clear SE's ghastly DDR design than a 60 year-old, right?