New Player Etiquette

[TaleraRistain]

Where this all falls down is that "know how to play their jobs/roles" invariably means "know how to play as well as me."

It's baffling to me that the same group of people who (rightfully) celebrate their skill in clearing high-end content simultaneously believe (apparently) that there is no intrinsic skill spread in the player base.

"By the time you reach DT you should be able to do X,Y and Z" is the most overused myth on these boards.

Also "only play the way I do"

When we get randomly matched in Duty Finder, we don't know what someone's skill level is. We don't know if they have distractions. And honestly I don't care. It's a dungeon. We can do it fast and that's fun to me or we can do it a miniscule bit slower and that's fun to me or heck we can even take a ton of time in there because people are learning and that's fun to me. I especially enjoy those parties once they do finally get it because it gives them a little taste of the elation I get when I finally see that Savage boss die. There are so many people who try to hold people who the system randomly matched with them to their own personal ideas of how others should play. But the only person we can control is ourself. I find it a much better experience to adjust if needed to what I get since I'm letting the game match me with basically anyone instead of curating my experience with a premade group.

[Mawlzy]

The issue with the mentality of someone should know how to play their class is that the game doesn't give you any reason at all to improve. The story dungeons are very easy yes but the idea of pulling wall to wall is a player created one.
Then you add the fact that in general, people are afraid to give advice in fear of being banned for whatever reason.
So I 100% believe that someone can go even all the way to LVL 100 without someone telling them to pull wall to wall.

And let's not forget that some people just don't want to improve. They're just having fun going at their slow speed. And they have the right to. We're all paying customers afterall.

I'd modify that a bit to "people have reached their skill cap given the amount of time they wish to devote to PvE," but I basically agree.

This whole idea of everyone meeting a PvE skill threshold is completely misplaced. It comes from action-combat RPGs and has no place in a MMORPG. Particularly one in which PvE is poorly-designed and repetitive.

And yet somehow it has become the dominant ideology in FFXIV.

[Gurgeh]

...

Yes 100%. I finally got better when I hit expert roul because I was finally getting 'feedback' on my play from the game. Remember I don't use ACT to cheat my way to improving my game play.
Then i didn't get better at normals and Alliances... until I started doing Exs in Endwalker.
100% it's about the game teaching you when you are getting it right , making you ask questions, by knocking your arse on the floor when you get it wrong. (24 man body checks teaches almost F all)

[ChrysOCE]

And yet somehow it has become the dominant ideology in FFXIV.

I would say the dominant ideology is rather that everyone can play as they like. I think you have seen that attitude in both PVP and PVE.

[Mawlzy]

I would say the dominant ideology is rather that everyone can play as they like. I think you have seen that attitude in both PVP and PVE.

Maybe it's better to say there are two competing ideologies that are yet another major cause of friction between players. It's one reason I advocate for a dual-difficulty system in all required PvE content.

The situation in PvP seems to me different, in that there is a minority of players in Frontline whose "playstyle" is a ToS violation.

[ChrysOCE]

Maybe it's better to say there are two competing ideologies that are yet another major cause of friction between players. It's one reason I advocate for a dual-difficulty system in all required PvE content.

The situation in PvP seems to me different, in that there is a minority of players in Frontline whose "playstyle" is a ToS violation.

There is a minority of players who actively play that way. But there are enough players that seem to not care/tolerate/excuse it. So the ideology "let them play as they want" seems to be wider.

Ultimately, people can claim it is elitist or un-empathic or whatever else they want to describe it as, I will still expect tanks to w2w in later content. Yes, we are all paying customers. Myself included. So as much as people want to say to consider those players who want to take it slow, it goes the other way too.

[YovelaLindswood]

I'd modify that a bit to "people have reached their skill cap given the amount of time they wish to devote to PvE," but I basically agree.

This whole idea of everyone meeting a PvE skill threshold is completely misplaced. It comes from action-combat RPGs and has no place in a MMORPG. Particularly one in which PvE is poorly-designed and repetitive.

And yet somehow it has become the dominant ideology in FFXIV.

If its poorly designed and repetitive it shouldn't be that hard to pick up though. Like tanking in xiv took me so little time to pick up compared to other games. The skill floor to be an effective tank is so low there's really no excuse. People just don't want to put in the small amount of effort it takes to learn their role and blame others for their poor performance. Any other mmo has a minimum skill threshold. If you cant play in gw2 you cause deaths and get removed. If you cant play in wow you get removed. Everquest, runescape etc. The idea that you shouldn't be held to a standard and can sandbag anyone you want cuz feels is toxic af. Stop being a selfish player and contribute to your games community. This toxic casuality is exactly why people are leaving for other games in droves.

[Mawlzy]

If its poorly designed and repetitive it shouldn't be that hard to pick up though. Like tanking in xiv took me so little time to pick up compared to other games. The skill floor to be an effective tank is so low there's really no excuse. People just don't want to put in the small amount of effort it takes to learn their role and blame others for their poor performance. Any other mmo has a minimum skill threshold. If you cant play in gw2 you cause deaths and get removed. If you cant play in wow you get removed. Everquest, runescape etc. The idea that you shouldn't be held to a standard and can sandbag anyone you want cuz feels is toxic af. Stop being a selfish player and contribute to your games community. This toxic casuality is exactly why people are leaving for other games in droves.

Absurd claims require evidence.

[Thurmnmurmn]

If its poorly designed and repetitive it shouldn't be that hard to pick up though. Like tanking in xiv took me so little time to pick up compared to other games. The skill floor to be an effective tank is so low there's really no excuse. People just don't want to put in the small amount of effort it takes to learn their role and blame others for their poor performance. Any other mmo has a minimum skill threshold. If you cant play in gw2 you cause deaths and get removed. If you cant play in wow you get removed. Everquest, runescape etc. The idea that you shouldn't be held to a standard and can sandbag anyone you want cuz feels is toxic af. Stop being a selfish player and contribute to your games community. This toxic casuality is exactly why people are leaving for other games in droves.

If you truly think that inneficient gameplay is toxic. Congrats! You're fitting the description of a toxic elitist.
But in all seriousness. Casuals are not the reason people are leaving. People are leaving because SE can't innovate anything at all and they butchered any individuality or complexity in jobs.

[0blivion]

Listen, there are level 70 healers standing still and only casting if someone is not topped up. That's not a matter of being bad at the game, that's laziness. You can be awful at the game and even some of the worst tanks I've seen would usually get better when they tried. Dungeons (that are not Criterion!) are content that require zero, and I mean zero skill. A literal 12-year-old could do most of them. You get drip fed easy mechanics from level 1 to 50, by 60 you should know most basics. By 70 you should absolutely be able to know most basic shit, and refusal to do so is honestly just expecting others to carry you through content. Hell, I am godawful at AST but I still press more buttons than round 4 of "oh but my primary job is healing" Andy who doesn't wanna weave after a GCD even though they made everything have a weave slot.