Difficult experience in Forked Tower – a reminder to respect public content

[Tyintheron]

Actually it isn't actionable, due to the reasons stated in the second line (not everyone is a healer/rdm/smn/chemist etc), as if it were then everyone who has a healer job at 100 who happens to be doing anything in the instance would have to drop everything they were currently doing to rez that player or be actioned.

Uncooperative Behaviour such as refusing to communicate with the rest of the group and Obstruction of Play through MPK by, say, running ahead of the group and exploding traps on them, is actionable.

Do we really have to go the route where we argue about whether or not a ficional 48-man raid SOMEHOW comes together with no healers in it? Do you REALLY think that now being a possibility means the GMs just throw up their hands and say "Well, whaddayagunnado? That raid with ten people that can res in it COULD POTENTIALLY have had nobody who could res! A CURSE UPON THESE TIES THAT BIND US TO INACTION!" when someone decides to take out their bad day on Innocent Bystander #27?

For starters - there's a whole lot of daylight between "being in the middle of a boss fight and not being able to res" and "telling someone in advance you're not going to res them because you took their buddy's spot" (which - let's be 100% clear - is a completely made-up accusation that has no mechanical bearing in the way the system is structured. No spot was "stolen," their buddy was too slow).

Secondly - that TYPE of behaviour - refusing to perform your class duties with respect to a particular player - is SPECIFICALLY called out in the ToS as an example of reportable "Aiding the enemy / Uncooperative behavior / Lethargic behavior":

"I don't want to heal because there is a player I don't like in the group."

Not a stretch to have that also apply to giving them a res mid-fight or between bosses, right?

Or how about:

"Using and manipulating enmity-related actions in an effort to incapacitate other players or interfere with gameplay."

...for the aforementioned Tank Buster being deliberately moved into them? That one's under "Obstructing Gameplay Using Combat."

So that's a deliberate tank-buster IN COMBINATION with no res, IN COMBINATION with telling them before the raid that if they don't make room for the poster's friend "we will leave you on the floor" which - it's worth pointing out - uses the word "we," implying it wasn't just one person, but MULTIPLE people, making a team effort to make life hard for the player in question.

Followd by, apparently, jumping on their un-rezzed bodies to get the point across.

Every single one of those things is actionable. They're probably PARTICULARLY actionable in combination.

Do I think every time someone misses a chance to res it's reportin' time? Of course not. Do I think it was done deliberately here, and to the detriment of the player in question? Yeah, absolutely - they TOLD them so.

So, yeah - it's absolutely reportable, and it's absolutely against the ToS.

[Tyintheron]

You're not gonna raise a potential wipe-causer who sniped your group because, as has been stated several times, wiping in FT yeets you out of the tower unless you killed a Chemist and had 100% raise uptime on them just in case you wipe. And you shouldn't wipe before your prog point. And if the only reason why you could wipe pre-prog point is a sniper, then, well... That's why people won't res snipers. Though honestly, the sheer disrespect they treat the organizers with would also warrant not ressing. Or, you know, the sniper not being in your party. Which makes it non-reportable, as elaborated by others upthread.

/e: edited to add quote

Right, but you keep using the word "sniper" as if someone shot your dog and you're mad about it. They DESERVE IT, right? THE GALL.

Not every solo player you encounter in the raid has been sitting around frantically clicking refresh on Twitch just to ruin your day, is all I'm saying.

[Kasumii]

Every single one of those things is actionable. They're probably PARTICULARLY actionable in combination.

Do I think every time someone misses a chance to res it's reportin' time? Of course not. Do I think it was done deliberately here, and to the detriment of the player in question? Yeah, absolutely - they TOLD them so.

So, yeah - it's absolutely reportable, and it's absolutely against the ToS.

Thank you! That is what I have been trying to say with pulling out the ToS. it is clearly done maliciously and thus actionable no matter how much the discord groups cry about the random "not being in their group". And then they wonder why everyone has a hateboner for them and doesn't want to join their little discord cliques if they prepetuate the stereotype of why nobody wants to join those groups in the first place.

But youre better off talking to a wall. Just keep reporting such incidents in-game and we'll see if their "well he wasnt in our discord" excuse holds up with the GMs /shrug

Edit: To add to that: its super funny how nobody is disputing that what the people in the premade did was done maliciously. It is already established using a rez after the fight doesn't cost the chemist anything at all and if the randoms are truly that bad then hey, they'd die two more times and they'd be out automatically. But nope. They are being denied a rez maliciously and spitefully to hinder their gameplay. All because "but but were worried about our clear :c". Once more, they are free to think that they are right. But if they really believe they are right then why do they keep screaming that they did nothing wrong? I'll make it a habit of reporting anyone in OC I see calling someone a sniper and respectfully everyone else here in this thread should do too.

Just cuz youre in a discord premade doesnt give you first dibs and allows you to shit on the game's ToS. If a random joins you and maliciously kills your run then guess what! You can report them for that! Insane I know. Just as me and I think a few others will keep reporting everyone denying people rezzes (and even announcing so in say chat) and calling others snipers. At the end of the day it is not up to us but to the GMs to sift through reports.

[Kaurhz]

I mean... Nobody is really obligated to the platform in the first place, regardless of whether you come in as a pre-made or not.... Getting out of it is just a mere courtesy and should not really be seen as an expectancy...

Viewing it this way is just as entitled as anything else.

You can potentially argue it as infringing on the ToS, but ultimately without being able to derive malicious intent, it's really difficult to discern, as there are ultimately a plethora of reasons as to why people may have not got the memo.

But I would say if you wanted to go down the path of trying to weaponize the ToS as a justification for anything then really refusing to raise someone can also be seen as an issue... But ultimately both of these depend more on what side of the bed the person reviewing the report woke up on... Like anything else that gets reported.

and to be honest if the go-to is to not raise someone because they can cause a wipe, then frankly this is a content design issue more than it is a player issue, and only really goes to highlight the ineptitude.

[0blivion]

@ Tyintheron
Regarding all the unhinged meltdown stuff about how actually, "what if this is my only chance to get in". You wouldn't have a chance if you didn't steal the chance from one of the people who bothered to organize. Especially with 7.3 making it more transparent, people will just leave the instance when uncooperative snipers join, eventually ending that sort of behavior. As for languages, I speak more than enough languages and usually, when you don't understand, you communicate (possibly in your language!) that you do not speak English. And if you did have a 48man premade but scouted alone... Man, I'm not indulging that BS. Nobody scouts instances like that, cuz that's not what instances work like. Most premade 48man force a fresh instance to open unless they end up with 4 out of 6 parties in the same old instance, which is the only time someone would politely ask if others could reinstance. If not, it's fine: You just wait for the instance to fill and requeue. But if you've spammed CEs/FATEs for tower, done spreadsheets and rosters, and you tell someone to please step off the platform, and they don't do so... Yeah, that's shitty behavior, and the premades are well within their right to leave those people on the floor. It's also not about being "too slow", showing that you have clearly not been in Tower. The snipers stack up to 6 ciphers to brute force their way into a party they don't belong in, even when asked to leave and join a newbie run in a discord, being actively welcomed to join future organized runs. OP stacked 3 ciphers. What's normal is 1, 2 if there's a sniper. That is intentional malice, and while the game lets them, they do not deserve a raise.

And again, I can tell you haven't done Tower when you say this shit about the TB. The TB is baited outside, you cannot kill single people with it unless they literally stand in front of the boss. In which case they shouldn't be sniping a premade that is at a further prog point! This is not rocket science! The random sniper isn't in their party. They're basically a random in OC. And you can't get all randoms in OC who don't raise you banned. You're not aiding the enemy by not helping an unaffiliated player.

/e: And no, you are not entitled to wasting 2 hours of 48 people's time, actually.

[Mawlzy]

The level of slander is insane.

Lol slander! "The action or crime of making a false spoken statement damaging to a person's reputation." What you're thinking of is "libel," but...

Sir and/or madam, this is not r/ShitpostXIV.

You can't slander/libel someone when the statement is objectively true, and you can't damage the reputation of a group of people who have already sunk that reputation through their comments in this thread!

That said, I personally wouldn't have gone for "cabal." With multiple Discords carving up the timeslots to avoid getting in each other's way while denying the content to others, a more accurate term would be "Discord cartel."

[TaleraRistain]

I think the unfortunate thing after today is that we're still going to see this even after 7.3 They're adding a way for 48 players to get into the same instance (maybe opening a new one if an instance doesn't have 48 slots open?) but they're not changing anything about the entry requirements once inside the instance. The only thing it might change is people won't yell at half the zone to leave so they can zone in.

[Volgia]

Lol slander! "The action or crime of making a false spoken statement damaging to a person's reputation." What you're thinking of is "libel," but...

Sir and/or madam, this is not r/ShitpostXIV.

You can't slander/libel someone when the statement is objectively true, and you can't damage the reputation of a group of people who have already sunk that reputation through their comments in this thread!

That said, I personally wouldn't have gone for "cabal." With multiple Discords carving up the timeslots to avoid getting in each other's way while denying the content to others, a more accurate term would be "Discord cartel."

Mawlzy I know you're deep into being averse against anything that is slightly hardcore but I wouldn't die on this hill.

[Luluya]

Do we really have to go the route where we argue about whether or not a ficional 48-man raid SOMEHOW comes together with no healers in it? Do you REALLY think that now being a possibility means the GMs just throw up their hands and say "Well, whaddayagunnado? That raid with ten people that can res in it COULD POTENTIALLY have had nobody who could res! A CURSE UPON THESE TIES THAT BIND US TO INACTION!" when someone decides to take out their bad day on Innocent Bystander #27?

For starters - there's a whole lot of daylight between "being in the middle of a boss fight and not being able to res" and "telling someone in advance you're not going to res them because you took their buddy's spot" (which - let's be 100% clear - is a completely made-up accusation that has no mechanical bearing in the way the system is structured. No spot was "stolen," their buddy was too slow).

Secondly - that TYPE of behaviour - refusing to perform your class duties with respect to a particular player - is SPECIFICALLY called out in the ToS as an example of reportable "Aiding the enemy / Uncooperative behavior / Lethargic behavior":

"I don't want to heal because there is a player I don't like in the group."

Not a stretch to have that also apply to giving them a res mid-fight or between bosses, right?

Or how about:

"Using and manipulating enmity-related actions in an effort to incapacitate other players or interfere with gameplay."

...for the aforementioned Tank Buster being deliberately moved into them? That one's under "Obstructing Gameplay Using Combat."

So that's a deliberate tank-buster IN COMBINATION with no res, IN COMBINATION with telling them before the raid that if they don't make room for the poster's friend "we will leave you on the floor" which - it's worth pointing out - uses the word "we," implying it wasn't just one person, but MULTIPLE people, making a team effort to make life hard for the player in question.

Followd by, apparently, jumping on their un-rezzed bodies to get the point across.

Every single one of those things is actionable. They're probably PARTICULARLY actionable in combination.

Do I think every time someone misses a chance to res it's reportin' time? Of course not. Do I think it was done deliberately here, and to the detriment of the player in question? Yeah, absolutely - they TOLD them so.

So, yeah - it's absolutely reportable, and it's absolutely against the ToS.

As has been clarified at various points throughout the thread, the player was not in the discord premade's group as they refused to join their party or even communicate that they wanted to.

And no, a tankbuster was not aimed into the solo player it was pointed that way to avoid cleaving the entire raid.

[Phen]

I think the idea was literally "you bring randoms and it often fails and every like 50 times you pass this one mechanic because some 8-man parties had a quick chat before pull that have done it 49 times before and they happened to all be in the same instance, and geared, and multiple jobs (etc)." because that would mean you only clear it a few times before the next tower is out in 6 months or whatever. Content longevity! So yah no sniping here- deal with the reality- you are intended to not progress often even hanging out there.

I feel like so much of this would be fixed by removing the raise penalties so the idea of "ill just catch the next one" would be normal. I mean the same discord gatekeeping happens with hunts- but since its more the merrier/they advertise in shout when doing things-- its no issue.