Difficult experience in Forked Tower – a reminder to respect public content

[RuriStone]

To be human is to be beyond base impulses. Yes, you can snipe runs and the game will not punish you for doing it. A certain type of person wouldn't do that, and a certain type of person would. Regardless of your opinions on the design decisions, there is courteous, sociable behaviour, and there is discourteous, selfish, anti-social behaviour.

PF menus and player written descriptions prevent most people from joining content they're not ready for and disrupting other player's experiences because there are more significant social consequences - getting repeatedly blacklisted for this behaviour means you will run out of PFs to join. There are no direct social ingame consequences for sniping runs, and so people who lack empathy and consideration for communities that are putting efforts into preparing and organising serious attempts at this content have no deterrent to cease the behaviour. Worse still, they are actively cheered on by people in this thread.

If you choose to spend your time in that way why would you expect anybody to feel sorry for you? Not everyone is entitled to empathy and consideration especially if they don't even have the courtesy to let people be new to content and learn at their own pace.

[YovelaLindswood]

Contrary to popular belief, some people WILL kick you for wasting their time on cutscenes or dying too much even in "normal" content. Mind you, when I first unlocked and attempted the Ivalice raids, it was during the last mogtome event where it was included, so I guess there were people trying to farm it efficiently and me being the ONLY person watching the cutscenes for the first time and fighting the bosses partially blind (because I didn't want to be spoiled TOO much) and dying repeatedly on mechanics really chaffed some people, so it took more than one attempt to get through the whole series because I was getting booted here and there, and even when I wasn't, I still had people being pretty jerkish about my failures while sometimes implying it was because I was from Dynamis, and thus I was either an idiot or a griefer in their eyes.

Yeah it sucks thats your experience. If it means anything I respect the hell out of the fact that you try to not be a screw up and get carried and learn the game. Its 100% because of the mogtome event. I cant say i've ever seen that ever happen in the 10 years i've played the game so I can say its def not the norm to kick someone in a cutscene in an araid. As for performance practice makes perfect so the best thing you can do is just convey a "first time" on entry. It doesn't always work but a lot of time people will curb expectations if they know you're learning and not just running it for tomes through roulettes. Or leave and take a 30 which works either way. I love playing tanks and healers personally but if you're still learning the game dps is what i'd direct you to since your personal responsibility is lower for team completion you don't put yourself in the team agro chair. Some people are just jerks with no saving and you gotta just shrug it off and ignore them, but most people like me will forgive a few deaths if you're doing your rotation and genuinely attempting the content. Websites like the balance give good breakdowns of the core of every class in the game so i'd recommend looking at your class guide and practicing on a striking dummy a bit till you get the muscle memory down enough to play in a dungeon. Doing that will usually be enough to de agro most people. Do that until you feel comfortable enough with mechanics to try tanking or healing. Both of which can be practiced in trusts if you want to as well. Theres also core things about the combat system like snapshotting and slidecast windows so id recommend hitting up youtube to learn some of how the core backend works in this game. Understanding how damage hits you will do wonders for your gameplay. Hopefully theres something in this long winded post that can help you to not experience that as often or at all.

[Neclord]

If you choose to spend your time in that way why would you expect anybody to feel sorry for you? Not everyone is entitled to empathy and consideration especially if they don't even have the courtesy to let people be new to content and learn at their own pace.

Whether someone is entitled to empathy or not is irrelevant. It's not the point I'm making and you'd be better off enaging with what I'm actually saying rather than imaginary arguments.

The fact remains, disrupting these runs - regardless of how the content is designed - is disruptive, discourteous, and anti-social. If someone's instinct upon seeing 48 people with a unified objective is "I have a right to insert myself in this space even if it disrupts them" then all I can conclude is that something has gone seriously wrong in their developmental years.

[aiqa]

They also clearly explained that the content is too difficult for randoms and that they wouldn’t be able to progress

Not to mention that the tankbuster in question is a cleave designed to be faced in a particular direction, OP fully acknowledges they didn’t really know the fight beforehand and the person from the raid said that they stood where they shouldn’t

Am I allowed to report a tank for standing behind them during a cleave tankbuster

You are right that the “we ask you to please not snipe” is very much a “only people who actually do discord runs are going to understand exactly what you mean” but nor were they intentionally impolite

They also said it was fine if others wanted to join: "if you join anyway that is fine". For me that doesn't quite translate into "and we'll intentionally kill you with a TB if you dare join our run". When saying it's fine if others want to join, there is very little high ground left for them. That "fine" was probably a passive aggressive "not fine" in hindsight, but that is just another communication fail from that discord group.

And intent is the important thing for getting killed by tank cleaves. If someone stands behind a cleave, that is on them. But if a tank obviously runs to someone to pull the cleave on them, that is very different. I wasn't there, so I can't say what happened. But IF it was the later like OP claims "I was intentionally killed by a tank who moved into me during the tank buster", that seems against the TOS. That tank would need a very good explanation for why that cleave had to be exactly where those others were standing. If it was the former, something to try avoid next time.

[YovelaLindswood]

If you choose to spend your time in that way why would you expect anybody to feel sorry for you? Not everyone is entitled to empathy and consideration especially if they don't even have the courtesy to let people be new to content and learn at their own pace.

Right and one person isn't entitled to empathy because they chose to join a run where they were told what would happen in END GAME CONTENT where they promptly died by standing where the tb was going because they didn't learn the fight. I'm not opposed to blind runs. I actually enjoy them. The difference is Most people have limited time in the day and don't want to deal with that when that's not the groups intention. This is especially true for content with long entry requirements like BA or Forked Tower. If I want to find a blind group I either host one with those as the goals or join one. The last thing i'd want is to get off a 10 hr work day, come home and wait 30mins to an hour getting everyone in one instance and waiting for weather, and running the content to have the group wipe to one person who wanted to do it at "their pace." Once you join a group for group content its no longer your pace and becomes the group pace. The core problem lies in se for designing it this way but that still doesn't elicit sympathy from me when they were informed what would happen. It was their choiche to enter despite the warning and they have to live with that choiche.

[Supersnow845]

They also said it was fine if others wanted to join: "if you join anyway that is fine". For me that doesn't quite translate into "and we'll intentionally kill you with a TB if you dare join our run". When saying it's fine if others want to join, there is very little high ground left for them. That "fine" was probably a passive aggressive "not fine" in hindsight, but that is just another communication fail from that discord group.

And intent is the important thing for getting killed by tank cleaves. If someone stands behind a cleave, that is on them. But if a tank obviously runs to someone to pull the cleave on them, that is very different. I wasn't there, so I can't say what happened. But IF it was the later like OP claims "I was intentionally killed by a tank who moved into me during the tank buster", that seems against the TOS. That tank would need a very good explanation for why that cleave had to be exactly where those others were standing. If it was the former, something to try avoid next time.

“If you join anyway that’s fine we will have to leave you on the floor”. That is frank and easy to understand. They can’t tell you “you can’t join”, people in this thread have meticulously combed over the TOS to explain why you can’t outright say “you can’t join” but they have gotten as far as they can say basically amounting to “we can’t stop you but it isn’t in your best interest”

And as for the TB I know which TB it is and it’s one where the parties have to squeeze into a small space that feels unsafe to waste a massive amount of the arena to point a cleave where the big part of the “wasted” arena “feels” safe because of the required positioning of the following mechanic. That area is rather hectic. It seems to me it’s far more likely OP (understandably) went to the safe “feeling” side of the arena trying to stay alive and got cleaved by the TB being required to be pointed that way

I personally am 100% not a good enough tank to be in that mechanic and figure out a way to intentionally cleave only OP, still resolve the mechanic correctly for everyone else and be in the right position with my party for the next mechanic unless it played out similarly to how I explained above, but I’m also not a savage quality tank so mileage may vary

[Jeeqbit]

But that's the point, isn't it? That that's what the OP tried to do. There were no barriers in their way to doing it - just a group being jerks about it on the other side.

They weren't really jerks though. They politely explained the nature of the content but also said they could join if they absolutely insist since the game allows them to. But, naturally, that they could not realistically rez them if they mess up because it would sabotage the run.

This is something OP was aware of considering they watched a guide, so the explanation they were given about it needing premades would have made complete sense to them.

They would also have been aware that, if the other people there were a premade, that there are mechanics they could get wrong that would inconsiderately cause that premade 46 to be ejected. If I was in their position, I would not want to selfishly inconvenience that many people. That, in and of itself, would be as rude as joining a clear party in PF when I'm at fresh prog. We could make a similar argument for that "but SE technically lets you join the PF as fresh prog even though the rest of them are clear-ready therefore they must accept wiping for hours". It comes down to social interaction, which is exactly what took place.

I mean, sure, that can happen. OP seemed quite sure they were deliberately killed, though, which seems to be supported by the fact they were then refused a res.

If a rez means 46 people will have had their time wasted, it doesn't make logical sense to rez. There is an opportunity at the beginning to demonstrate they know the fight enough to not be a risk, but it doesn't seem they had the same experience the others there did.

The part I'm not sure about is whether you're telling me I should be more okay with someone tank-busting me because in French they'd say "Le Tank Busteurre, le croissant-head!"

That wasn't what I was saying. I was saying that it's regional and that people are assuming this entire incident is an NA issue and that NA are also this rude, but this incident was in the EU and so I was giving context that being rude/blunt is the "norm" in the EU compared to NA. All I'm saying is, just because this "rudeness" is a prevaling issue in all EU content types, doesn't mean it is in NA, and that minds should be open that NA discords don't necessarily operate the same way either.

[aiqa]

“If you join anyway that’s fine we will have to leave you on the floor”. That is frank and easy to understand. They can’t tell you “you can’t join”, people in this thread have meticulously combed over the TOS to explain why you can’t outright say “you can’t join” but they have gotten as far as they can say basically amounting to “we can’t stop you but it isn’t in your best interest”

That is again, depends on your reference frame. I would not understand the nuances of joining the raid from just those lines. To me that seems more like a "yeah you can join, but we'll just do our own thing so don't expect much help". And that happens in the whole exploration zone. People not really understanding the fights are dying left and right, and on the more messy fights half of them are dead by the end. Extrapolating that to the raid doesn't seem farfetched.

You can very much just state what you want to do with the raid, without going against the TOS, and without making it open to interpretation. You could say something like "To the people queuing up for this raid. We want to try do this as a premade group, we spend hours planning and preparing for it. This is extremely difficult content. Any random people joining will most likely cause it all to fail for everyone. We ask for your consideration. If you feel up to the challenge, and want to join future runs, join us on discord/xxxxx". If people really spend hours preparing, they could spend 5 minutes coming up with some communication to paste in chat.

[Carin-Eri]

Right and one person isn't entitled to empathy because they chose to join a run where they were told what would happen in END GAME CONTENT where they promptly died by standing where the tb was going because they didn't learn the fight. I'm not opposed to blind runs. I actually enjoy them. The difference is Most people have limited time in the day and don't want to deal with that when that's not the groups intention. This is especially true for content with long entry requirements like BA or Forked Tower. If I want to find a blind group I either host one with those as the goals or join one. The last thing i'd want is to get off a 10 hr work day, come home and wait 30mins to an hour getting everyone in one instance and waiting for weather, and running the content to have the group wipe to one person who wanted to do it at "their pace." Once you join a group for group content its no longer your pace and becomes the group pace. The core problem lies in se for designing it this way but that still doesn't elicit sympathy from me when they were informed what would happen. It was their choiche to enter despite the warning and they have to live with that choiche.

That's another issue with the whole setup though.

Forget pre-arranged attempts at it for a moment....

Where did the game tell us that FT is Savage-level content?

The patch notes described it as "The greatest challenge to be found on the Occult Crescent" but that's pretty ambiguous. And the dialogue in the unlock quest ("Past and Crescent") doesn't allude to it either.

So your average player who has been dashing between FATES and CE's without much of a second thought is unlikely to give FT's difficult a second thought either.

[hunter2]

I can only imagine there was no communication between the team that built OC and the team that built FT. This mismatch between the entry conditions and the actual raid content is a massive blunder that could have easily been foreseen with proper managerial oversight.

I hope they announce proper fixes for these issues (and others) on Friday. Letting you queue as a premade from outside OC is honestly the bare minimum required and we should hold the dev team to higher standards.