Phantom Jobs are a step in the right direction but need iteration.

[Yamadronis]

A thing I appreciate about Phantom Jobs over Logos, and Lost actions is the lack of item consumption needed (save for a few specific job actions). I didn't really like have to burn through stuff when at camp after joining an instance.

However, like 9 out of 10 Phantom Job actions were incredibly safe, and I would like to see more interaction with the overworld/fates/CEs instead of just being useful in Forked Tower. I hope the next batch of Phantom Jobs get weirder.

Having to grind or buy consumables were the primary reason I didn't do as much Eureka or Bozja content as I'd have liked to. I do, strongly, agree that they should be willing to take some wild risks with phantom jobs, and do something actually interesting and potentially even unbalancing, because it's Side-Only content. They weren't afraid to do silly things with Pomanders, why is large scale group content less acceptable to do that in? Boss fights and group content harder to balance? All content in these areas has basically been a puzzle dance to begin with. Let players learn the encounters, and then snap them over the knee or just find silly ways to have fun with strange skills.

[SaltyDaddy]

Tbh, consumables weren't that bad in my opinion. It was same as we farm gold nowadays. We just farm other stuff. But... Logograms being pricy also had its positive side. When you got them from bunny chest, you felt rewarded even without a rare drop. The pots now feel just bad, because outside of materia, there is not much stuff they can give you.

[SeriousPan]

I wish the Phantom Jobs would interact with our kit. The only one is really swiftcast into comet on Phantom Time Mage. Sure, it'd be busted in some cases, but why not let us be? If FT is so damn difficult on purpose then let Machinists guarantee a crit with Cannoneer. The determination to be balanced sucks sometimes when we could make all of them a tiny bit busted and expand on it and make it fun.

[Shurrikhan]

I wish the Phantom Jobs would interact with our kit. The only one is really swiftcast into comet on Phantom Time Mage. Sure, it'd be busted in some cases, but why not let us be? If FT is so damn difficult on purpose then let Machinists guarantee a crit with Cannoneer. The determination to be balanced sucks sometimes when we could make all of them a tiny bit busted and expand on it and make it fun.

I don't think it's a concern with balance, ultimately, that prevents that. You can have a decently balanced set of interactions between each Job and Phantom Job such that each looks "broken" but is ultimately held in check due to all other choices also being "broken"-ly synergetic. See Heroes of the Storm in its heyday, for instance.

The real limiting factor is simply warrantable effort. What would make the degree of effort required for every Phantom Job to add something of competitive interest to every real Job worthwhile? We've seen by now that player satisfaction is a non-concern until it the final straw that withdraws retention (or perhaps even not until it would prevent one from coming back for major patch/new-expansion months).

[Supersnow845]

I don't think it's a concern with balance, ultimately, that prevents that. You can have a decently balanced set of interactions between each Job and Phantom Job such that each looks "broken" but is ultimately held in check due to all other choices also being "broken"-ly synergetic. See Heroes of the Storm in its heyday, for instance.

The real limiting factor is simply warrantable effort. What would make the degree of effort required for every Phantom Job to add something of competitive interest to every real Job worthwhile? We've seen by now that player satisfaction is a non-concern until it the final straw that withdraws retention (or perhaps even not until it would prevent one from coming back for major patch/new-expansion months).

To be fair lost actions hit that balance much better. Not every action was a win but every job has at least 2-3 actions that do have a massive impact on how you perform and change the way you play

It would be unrealistic to expect every lost action to have its own meta niche application but phantom actions basically substitute this with “if a tank you get a big nuke occasionally, if you are any other role kick rocks”

[Altina_Orion]

I don't know, if you actually compare Phantom Jobs to lost actions, they are worse in every way except for a few minor things.

Pros:

• Neat interactions in the forked tower
• Non-consumable

Cons:

• Not customizable or flexible. You pick one job and thats it, no mix and match, no synergizing abilities...
• Only minorly changes gameplay. They only have one or two actions per job you actually use and sometimes none.
• Weak compared to lost actions. The way you could combine these to make nutty builds was insane and so fun. Still to this day I can do more damage in Bozja AS A TANK than I can as in any DT content.
• Outside of forked tower, there are only a few ones that are actually useful. Why would anyone play monk?

Looks to me like this was a major step in the wrong direction.

[Supersnow845]

I don't know, if you actually compare Phantom Jobs to lost actions, they are worse in every way except for a few minor things.

Pros:

• Neat interactions in the forked tower
• Non-consumable

Cons:

• Not customizable or flexible. You pick one job and thats it, no mix and match, no synergizing abilities...
• Only minorly changes gameplay. They only have one or two actions per job you actually use and sometimes none.
• Weak compared to lost actions. The way you could combine these to make nutty builds was insane and so fun. Still to this day I can do more damage in Bozja AS A TANK than I can as in any DT content.
• Outside of forked tower, there are only a few ones that are actually useful. Why would anyone play monk?

Looks to me like this was a major step in the wrong direction.

Funnily enough monk is actually one of the most broadly useful jobs. That’s flat 27% buff that’s not conditional (like say needing to get hit on geo to make bell stacks) combined with the fact that each hit of phantom kick is like 150 potency in phantom actions means overall it increases your damage more than just about any other phantom job (more if you luck into parrying a raidwide)

It’s funny that it’s basically equivalent to just equipping skirmisher but hey phantom actions are bad so what the hell

[Asari5]

the selfheal on monk is pretty neat. but i guess most people are boring and play tank in oc so they dont need something like that

[Altina_Orion]

Funnily enough monk is actually one of the most broadly useful jobs. That’s flat 27% buff that’s not conditional (like say needing to get hit on geo to make bell stacks) combined with the fact that each hit of phantom kick is like 150 potency in phantom actions means overall it increases your damage more than just about any other phantom job (more if you luck into parrying a raidwide)

It’s funny that it’s basically equivalent to just equipping skirmisher but hey phantom actions are bad so what the hell

No

Not true because oracle and cannoneer just do more. a 27% buff is nothing compared to cannons, starfall, or sam. It's just straight up less damage. A 27% buff seems nice but when you find out oracle's one ability does as much as a two minute burst in one GCD, it doesnt sound so great anymore. And even if it is the equivalent of skirmisher, its skirmisher with nothing else. Pair skirmisher with a banner of power and lost excellence and you'll see what i mean.

[Supersnow845]

No

Not true because oracle and cannoneer just do more. a 27% buff is nothing compared to cannons, starfall, or sam. It's just straight up less damage. A 27% buff seems nice but when you find out oracle's one ability does as much as a two minute burst in one GCD, it doesnt sound so great anymore. And even if it is the equivalent of skirmisher, its skirmisher with nothing else. Pair skirmisher with a banner of power and lost excellence and you'll see what i mean.

That’s why I specifically said also including phantom kick and counter stance giving it enough damage to make it “one of the most broadly useful jobs” and “more than just about any other job”

Oracle is dangerous (using cleanse is a loss compared to monk) and canonneer doing more damage is based on your chance of hitting counterstance and how much 27% helps you (like DPS vs healer)

It doesn’t do the most damage but like I said it’s one of the most broadly useful jobs because it can do some of the most damage, has sustain and is equally useful on any class. Which way it falls with canonneer is based on a variety of factors