Criticism

[Kohashi]

If the feedback were actually acknowledged and in a sensible way whilst discussing how it fits into their games direction, and not just telling people if they want compelling gameplay then they should do xyz (because they can't be bothered finding a healthy medium outside of that content), then I doubt many of the players critiquing the game would see many issues in that. However, the vast majority of the feedback has demonstrably fallen onto deaf ears, including that which is well written, discussing the positives, negatives and the impact of it.

When you spend the better part of 6-7 years providing feedback to the game, just to have it ignored, fall on deaf ears, or completely dismissed outright, then yeah, most feedback will eventually turn into anything but criticality, because seemingly they have done anything but suggest they actually care about the feedback (or that it is even being passed on), and as far as community engagement goes... Well, let's not talk about that because the only time we get it, is when we get the "I'm not annoyed at you, I am just disappointed speech" about third party tools.

If they aren't prepared to discuss it themselves, and if they aren't willing to engage with it properly then they should not be telling people to leave feedback on a forum in the first place, because this is what results in what you're seeing on the General Discussion.

But based on how confident you are, I can safely assume that you're a legacy player, and that you have read all of the feedback presented, or do you just sit on a small bunch of threads and pretend this is the only feedback that has ever been presented?

You can leave feedback on the forums, but most of it doesn't qualify as that. It's just venting and throwing tantrums.

Look at how you are even constructing your argument. You have 0 self-reflection, and instead of actually pausing and asking yourself why, in 6-7 years, your feedback fell on deaf ears, you continue to spout your "criticism". Like really?

Take a step back and ask where it went wrong. It cannot possibly be because the "feedback" just comes out as spiteful, toxic waste most of the time, it's not because they don't want to make another exact copy of WoW (even though the base idea came from there), and it cannot be possible be because JP people will never outright tell you no, or that the fact SE has always been resistant to change and the direction they take.

Look at the damn topics on the front page:

Demiatma drop rates are unacceptable
FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE
Machinest Further Nerfed PvE? (this dude cannot even read the damn changes properly yet he is venting)
How disrepectfull
Who else is thinking of cancelling their sub these days?
So you acknowledge atma farm was awful but do it again 12 sec later?

Yeah, my dude, there is 0 hope forums will be taken seriously.

[Sekundessounet]

You can leave feedback on the forums, but most of it doesn't qualify as that. It's just venting and throwing tantrums.

Look at how you are even constructing your argument. You have 0 self-reflection, and instead of actually pausing and asking yourself why, in 6-7 years, your feedback fell on deaf ears, you continue to spout your "criticism". Like really?

Take a step back and ask where it went wrong. It cannot possibly be because the "feedback" just comes out as spiteful, toxic waste most of the time, it's not because they don't want to make another exact copy of WoW (even though the base idea came from there), and it cannot be possible be because JP people will never outright tell you no, or that the fact SE has always been resistant to change and the direction they take.

Look at the damn topics on the front page:

Demiatma drop rates are unacceptable
FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE
Machinest Further Nerfed PvE? (this dude cannot even read the damn changes properly yet he is venting)
How disrepectfull
Who else is thinking of cancelling their sub these days?
So you acknowledge atma farm was awful but do it again 12 sec later?

Yeah, my dude, there is 0 hope forums will be taken seriously.

Not saying I disagree, but the Machinist guy wasn't venting, it was a genuine question because he was confused by the wording, which is fair.

[Kaurhz]

You can leave feedback on the forums, but most of it doesn't qualify as that. It's just venting and throwing tantrums.

Look at how you are even constructing your argument. You have 0 self-reflection, and instead of actually pausing and asking yourself why, in 6-7 years, your feedback fell on deaf ears, you continue to spout your "criticism". Like really?

Take a step back and ask where it went wrong. It cannot possibly be because the "feedback" just comes out as spiteful, toxic waste most of the time, it's not because they don't want to make another exact copy of WoW (even though the base idea came from there), and it cannot be possible be because JP people will never outright tell you no, or that the fact SE has always been resistant to change and the direction they take.

Look at the damn topics on the front page:

Demiatma drop rates are unacceptable
FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE
Machinest Further Nerfed PvE? (this dude cannot even read the damn changes properly yet he is venting)
How disrepectfull
Who else is thinking of cancelling their sub these days?
So you acknowledge atma farm was awful but do it again 12 sec later?

Yeah, my dude, there is 0 hope forums will be taken seriously.

and like I told you, most of it is going to be anything but critical due to how frequently feedback has fallen on deaf ears, in combination with their community engagement simply doesn't exist, so I posit you the question -- Why ask people to leave feedback if you're going to ignore it or not engage with it? - This is one of the largest issues we have, simply because it comes across as ignoring... Why should I continue to leave structured feedback about the state of crafting when they have only showed signs of placed 'good' systems on top of bad systems, and these bad systems only serve to undermine what good can be done, e.g., placing expert recipes on an incredibly neutered crafting system, for example.

There is nothing to reflect about, lmao. As you yourself have said in this very post, they are resistant to change and the direction they take -- So why ask people to leave feedback when you're already following a mentality that contradicts the very purpose of leaving feedback in the first place? It doesn't really matter what the reason for it is when all of the reasons have the same result in this instance

Let's look at the topics then on the frontpage of the General Discussion which only accounts for the small amount of feedback ever left:

- Demiatma - Aka the stepchild of the dearly hated atma, released in a neutered form, because they don't know how to design a proper grind without subsequently diluting the value of it by locking it on 1500 tomestones, as opposed to appropriately distributing the grind, like they have literally done in the past. The biggest irony here is that much of this feedback gets diluted by people responding with "Well you just want it handed to you on a silver platter 20 minutes after logging in", without actually trying to engage with the posts to find out exactly why people don't like RNG-based grinds.

- FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE - How often has the feedback on Healers fallen on deaf or dismissive minds? How much feedback must have been left on the Healer subforum in the past 5 years. Their last response was "If you want engaging healing then go play an ultimate" - How often must people create sensible and reasoned feedback when this is their response.

- Machinist - LOL, you being serious?

- How Disrespectful - How often must Viera and Hrothgar players play the abandoned child arc before Square Enix come to the realization that what they are doing on continually patching out their mistake. Viera and Hrothgar have been treated abysmally since their release, how patient must people be with half measures done over 5 years?

- Who else is thinking of cancelling their sub these days? - How about stop trying to police the discussions that people have on the game, and how about you take a moment to self-reflect and consider the very fact that you're just as bad as everyone else that you are trying to laud over.

- So you acknowledge atma farm was awful but do it again 12 sec later? - Perfectly reasonable thread. Why chin dig at a bad feature and then subsequently release it? What is this meant to be an underhanded skit at the 2.0 players that endured the original atma? - Get a grip why don't you.

Yes, these forums will never be taken seriously, and as much as I agree that the onus is on the players... The feedback left is only going to be as good as the developers that are asking for that feedback... So once again I posit the question... Why ask players to leave feedback when your very mentality contradicts it... They are literally the author of this forum at this point, and everything it has become.

Further, you should probably take a moment to reflect yourself, and get some self-awareness whilst you're at it, because you are just as bad as the people supposedly 'venting and throwing tantrums'. If these threads are what qualifies, then I can assure you-- You're just as bad as everyone else, so get off your high horse lmao. Aggravated maybe? But crying and throwing tantrums? Nah.

There is nothing for players to reflect about when they've been ignored... Whether this is because of resistance to change, aggressive removal of threads and posts, or just simply dismissive responses to feedback, or not taking any past lessons learned and applying it to new feedback... The end result is always the same regardless of what the underlying reason is. People are just responding the same way the devs are, with apathy.

[Kohashi]

wall of text

They provided a forum for you to leave feedback, but lately, the forums have been reduced to mostly complaints and venting. I know they used to mention forum posts and feedback provided in the past, yet for a while, they no longer do that. I wonder why.. I'm sure nothing happened since the release of Dawntrail, riiight?????

I know that each of those topics could have been made to actually provide a meaningful, well-balanced take while also communicating where they fell short without sounding like a bitter, entitled toxic waste.

[Kaurhz]

They provided a forum for you to leave feedback, but lately, the forums have been reduced to mostly complaints and venting. I know they used to mention forum posts and feedback provided in the past, yet for a while, they no longer do that. I wonder why.. I'm sure nothing happened since the release of Dawntrail, riiight?????

I know that each of those topics could have been made to actually provide a meaningful, well-balanced take while also communicating where they fell short without sounding like a bitter, entitled toxic waste.

Lately? The forums has been this way for a really really long time, at least the General Discussion has.. It's more apathetic these days than what was, but the players are not the sole reason for this. People have been asking for things for a really long time (and in a sensible fashion), and beyond a point it just feels like screaming in the void.

Those topics could have been many things, and if I am honest it is not just on the onus of the thread starter or even the people agreeing. Like, let's take this RNG grind for instance.. People have demonstrably hated RNG-based grinds.. They hated the OG Atma, they hated the Luminous Crystal grind, they hated the layered RNG on the Coven weapons.

Which all of this is fine if they want to experiment... But many people raising these complaints are just having people enter said threads with a paintbrush and splashing the "Y'all just don't want a grind and want it handed to you on a silver platter" response. How do you expect people to behave with their criticism when people aren't even responding or acting in good faith as a response. All of this is to say that even of those that want or try to promote sensible debate and feedback, need to realize that they are unironically part of the problem and co-architects of this place being a bitter and toxic waste as you so put it.

[Kohashi]

Lately? The forums has been this way for a really really long time, at least the General Discussion has.. It's more apathetic these days than what was, but the players are not the sole reason for this. People have been asking for things for a really long time (and in a sensible fashion), and beyond a point it just feels like screaming in the void.

Those topics could have been many things, and if I am honest it is not just on the onus of the thread starter or even the people agreeing. Like, let's take this RNG grind for instance.. People have demonstrably hated RNG-based grinds.. They hated the OG Atma, they hated the Luminous Crystal grind, they hated the layered RNG on the Coven weapons.

Which all of this is fine if they want to experiment... But many people raising these complaints are just having people enter said threads with a paintbrush and splashing the "Y'all just don't want a grind and want it handed to you on a silver platter" response. How do you expect people to behave with their criticism when people aren't even responding or acting in good faith as a response. All of this is to say that even of those that want or try to promote sensible debate and feedback, need to realize that they are unironically part of the problem and co-architects of this place being a bitter and toxic waste as you so put it.

I mean, to me, it all sounds like a bunch of kids throwing a tantrum if they don't get their way. At no point in time should you switch from being a decent human being to an abusive ahole just because you didn't get your way. That is never acceptable, so you trying to excuse that behaviour is very odd to me.

As for the issues with the RNG, I agree, it sucks but then again, if I dislike something enough I just don't do it. That's why I never did Bojza nor Atma, or anything that required a stupid amount of grind.

Now I am just playing OC every now and again with friends and between raiding. I go in there, play a bit, get bored -> get out. Also, JP has a huge culture of gacha and winning odds, which is why this stupid RNG even exists. I would prefer to have like.. Kill 20 X this mob and get 1 shard or kill 5 fates and get 1 shard, but RNG is a huge part of FF14, always has been.
I dislike RNG so much, especially after going the entire last tier without winning a single damn weapon coffer in M4s.. like..I was going insane..

[MitsukiKimura]

I mean, to me, it all sounds like a bunch of kids throwing a tantrum if they don't get their way. At no point in time should you switch from being a decent human being to an abusive ahole just because you didn't get your way. That is never acceptable, so you trying to excuse that behaviour is very odd to me.

Then you really must not read posts and just either assume or skim through post after post which is on you. People have given fair critic over how many design choices have been for the worst over the years and if they are still posting here then they are still subscribed to the game. Also stating that in no point of time should you switch from being a decent human being to an "ahole" is hypocritical since your forum posts contradict that. Im all in all for fair critic it's how things get changed for the better.

[Kohashi]

Then you really must not read posts and just either assume or skim through post after post which is on you. People have given fair critic over how many design choices have been for the worst over the years and if they are still posting here then they are still subscribed to the game. Also stating that in no point of time should you switch from being a decent human being to an "ahole" is hypocritical since your forum posts contradict that. Im all in all for fair critic it's how things get changed for the better.

Of course, among the pile of S, some posts are constructed well, and they provide some quality feedback. It is still up to SE if they want to listen to or act on it or not. They are not obliged in any shape or form to implement any of the feedback given, so getting butthurt over it, it's also very weird to me.

As for me, I don't remember sending death threats, nor creating multiple alts, nor spamming the forums with topics like: wuk llamat must die, nor trying to avoid bans, and the list goes on, but sure..

[Kaurhz]

I mean, to me, it all sounds like a bunch of kids throwing a tantrum if they don't get their way. At no point in time should you switch from being a decent human being to an abusive ahole just because you didn't get your way. That is never acceptable, so you trying to excuse that behaviour is very odd to me.

As for the issues with the RNG, I agree, it sucks but then again, if I dislike something enough I just don't do it. That's why I never did Bojza nor Atma, or anything that required a stupid amount of grind.

Now I am just playing OC every now and again with friends and between raiding. I go in there, play a bit, get bored -> get out. Also, JP has a huge culture of gacha and winning odds, which is why this stupid RNG even exists. I would prefer to have like.. Kill 20 X this mob and get 1 shard or kill 5 fates and get 1 shard, but RNG is a huge part of FF14, always has been.
I dislike RNG so much, especially after going the entire last tier without winning a single damn weapon coffer in M4s.. like..I was going insane..

This is because you're largely attributing posts to something which they are not. Take for instance the exampled Machinist thread, then asked a legitimate question, and you're sat here linking it in an external thread as if it's meant to be some sort of clown show, and with all due respect you really aren't much different. You can hide it under a passive undertone all you like, but really it's not much different from people that are being directly confrontational. I am not excusing anything, I am just not really surprised and unlike you I am not so inclined as to call 99% of all threads toxic waste of people venting and crying, and then generally I am just pointing out the hypocrisy behind your point.. Because from what I have gleamed so far, you're really not much different than the rest of us, the only major difference, you're using a passive undertone, and making the players the target of your attention instead of the developers.

and that's fine if you want to react that way, just don't expect people to react in the same manner, especially for content with which they have been waiting several years for... I'm in the boat of I simply don't care enough so I won't play it... Like I am playing Eureka over the new OC, and literally whenever I am not doing Eureka with friends, or just generally hanging out with them, then I immediately press the logout button, rather than even bother because I am driven to complete apathy.