Demiatma drop rates are unacceptable

[NaiaLalita]

I thought the drop rate was reasonable, when I did the grind on my main. I elected to go overworld FATE farming, because I am not a lucky person and I knew if I tried to get it done within Occult Crescent, I'd end up with 21 of a single type and 1 of the others, maybe.

My main managed a tidy 5% rate - every 20 or so FATEs, a demiatma.
Very reasonable. And that still more or less means a person would hit max Rank (4) in Dawntrail zones along the way, if they hadn't already.

I'm doing this step a second time on my alt, however. And I can't help but feel something in the code got fundamentally broken during Tuesday's maintenance (June 24). Because, again, I elected to overworld FATE farm. I did some of this before the maintenance. The 4 zones I targeted then, were mostly in line with my main's experience—about one demiatma every 20 or so FATEs.

But now? I am 200 FATEs deep in Urqopacha and I still do not have three Azurite Demiatma. This has taken me over 12 real hours of exclusively farming FATEs in this zone. Yes, 200. This is not an exaggeration. I've been keeping manual count, and verifying with the Destiny's Child achievement. (Update: Final tally came to ~210 FATEs to get 3 Azurite Demiatma)

Yes, the quest is active. I even tried abandoning the quest and picked it back up, to see if that would "fix" anything. It did not. The quest has been active for every FATE I've completed. And yes, I am only counting FATEs that get gold credit. I have no reason to believe anything less is even eligible for the drop.

The core issue of pure RNG is that it preserves the option for eternal failure. And however un-probable, there WILL be players/characters who get stuck because that option exists. Through no fault of their own, through no failure or shortcoming or inferiority. But because that's how the numbers shake out.

And when you're in that position, the message you receive is clear: "get lucky or get f***ed."
You do not feel respected. You do not feel valued.

It sows discontent, even resentment, in the community.
The lucky will, of course, have no problem.
And anyone who doesn't get lucky? They get left behind. Left out. Locked out of content (relic weapons, in this case).
And despite the fact that this is happening regardless of a player's time, skill, morality, or any other metric, it will still feel like a personal failing, like a punishment.

It's like going to an egg hunt event, and you're promised lunch once you collect 3 eggs with prizes inside! You find egg after egg after egg, and they're all empty. Your friends alongside you find their eggs, and theirs aren't empty. They get their prizes, they go to lunch. And you're stuck here. In a sea of empty eggs. No prizes, no lunch, and your friends are all off doing something else you can't join in on. Because the eggs keep being empty.

And this is apparently exactly the developers' intention?

[Jeeqbit]

I am 200 FATEs deep in Urqopacha and I still do not have three Azurite Demiatma.

I collected a lot of data on FATEs and sometimes it took as many as 60 FATEs, while other times it was around 20. If it took 50-60 FATEs to get an Atma, I eventually had a string of them close together where I did 24 FATEs and got 4. This pattern actually happened a few times. It all still evened out at a 5% rate according to division.

This has taken me over 12 real hours of exclusively farming FATEs in this zone.

The problem with this sentence is that a lot of players criticized "done in a day content" for years. So they make something take a mere 12 hours per task and there are complaints like this, which makes it seem like SE can't win.

The main reason I'm fine with FATEs having a lower rate is because I want the rate to be lower outside the new content. It was a big problem with Bozja that it was more efficient to ignore Bozja.

I'm not against guaranteed drops or a 95% rate but making it require hundreds of the respective thing, but I don't think it taking 12 hours is itself a problem when so many people directly asked for something that takes ages and consumes their time so that they have a reason to play and cited relic weapons as an example of what used to do that prior to Endwalker.

The core issue of pure RNG is that it preserves the option for eternal failure. And however un-probable, there WILL be players/characters who get stuck because that option exists. Through no fault of their own, through no failure or shortcoming or inferiority. But because that's how the numbers shake out.

I do agree with you when it comes to, say, dungeon minion drops. Those are a 1-2% drop rate. There are many dungeons that I have repeated every day for years and not got the drop. The difference between that and FATEs is that dungeons can keep you there 16 or more minutes (12 for modern ones). While FATEs are so much faster and less effort than that, with the mechanics being nothing like dungeon bosses. Compared with the years it took me to do 200 of the same dungeon, it took you only 12 hours to do that many FATEs.

You do not feel respected. You do not feel valued.

That's how I feel with dungeon minions, but beside FATEs being way faster, they are a way to get other rewards too such as gemstone rewards and gemstone vouchers if you finished Shared FATE ranks already. I believe you can also buy other things to sell as well.

[NaiaLalita]

I collected a lot of data on FATEs and sometimes it took as many as 60 FATEs, while other times it was around 20. If it took 50-60 FATEs to get an Atma, I eventually had a string of them close together where I did 24 FATEs and got 4. This pattern actually happened a few times. It all still evened out at a 5% rate according to division.

I very obviously also collected a lot of data—more than you, considering my luck is far worse than yours, and I'm talking about doing this on a second character. I'd appreciate you not to bulldoze over others' information with your own for the upteenth time.

The problem with this sentence is that a lot of players criticized "done in a day content" for years. So they make something take a mere 12 hours per task and there are complaints like this, which makes it seem like SE can't win.

You are mis-reading and mis-representing my data. My "12 hours" here isn't for completion. It was an estimated minimum presented as one of multiple units of measurement pertaining to one of six steps in this particular grind.

I do agree with you when it comes to, say, dungeon minion drops. Those are a 1-2% drop rate. There are many dungeons that I have repeated every day for years and not got the drop. The difference between that and FATEs is that dungeons can keep you there 16 or more minutes (12 for modern ones) ... Compared with the years it took me to do 200 of the same dungeon, it took you only 12 hours to do that many FATEs.
That's how I feel with dungeon minions, but beside FATEs being way faster, they are a way to get other rewards too such as gemstone rewards and gemstone vouchers if you finished Shared FATE ranks already. I believe you can also buy other things to sell as well.

While I sympathize with your minion-less plight, I really need to emphasize:
Most dungeon minions can be traded and sold. Should you refuse to buy, or in the rare case it's Untradeable, the dungeons you've been doing for years can be run via the Undersized Party option. Drastically faster clear times, and zero competition should the minion drop. More importantly: Failing to own a minion does not prevent you from completing a quest or progressing endgame content.
Demiatma, in contrast, cannot be traded or sold. Failing to own enough demiatma does prevent you from completing a quest and progressing endgame content.

Re-running dungeons also gives other rewards. Gear, sometimes other items. Desynthesize to try for items you can sell or craft with. Turn gear in with your Grand Company for seals, to buy other items, be it for personal glam, FC use, or market sales.
Funnily enough, I don't think this information makes you feel any better about not getting the minions you're so sore over, though, right?
Repeatedly invoking bicolor gemstone vouchers is similarly unhelpful.

[Valence]

So let me get this straight: Jeeqbit wanted something that lasts more than a day and so would have been actually happy trudging through 200 fates just for one candy of colour, but got done with the whole relic in a way shorter time because good rng. On the other hand, Naia felt it awful to get gated by such a bad rate on 200 fates for a single candy of colour and could have done with something faster there.

Do we still need to pain a picture how stupid this kind of design is and how toxic it's making the community at each other? XIV, the game that always tries to pride itself as avoiding player stress and conflict, literally designs toxic systems constantly.

[Jeeqbit]

I'd appreciate you not to bulldoze over others' information

That wasn't my intention. I was just adding my own experience to the discussion.

My "12 hours" here isn't for completion. It was an estimated minimum presented as one of multiple units of measurement pertaining to one of six steps in this particular grind.

Right, but that doesn't affect my point because if it took that long for all areas it would be 12 x 6 = 72 hours. If we assume people actually sleep and don't work or eat, which isn't realistic for most people, that's 96 hours spent. It's still gonna be less than a week for a person that plays all day, and so it would be a gradual process for someone that's busy. Probably a month.

I remember in Heavensward, I worked on my Anima relic for several months (pre-nerf) because the sands step was steep.

Failing to own enough demiatma does prevent you from completing a quest and progressing endgame content.

I don't see it the same way myself, because it's a sidequest and the weapon is never the best weapon until the end of the expansion. They are good for alts, probably slightly better than the Extreme weapons, but not in such a way that I can't do content. I can still jump into Savage, complete the OC story or do Forked Tower without it.

Jeeqbit wanted something that lasts more than a day and so would have been actually happy trudging through 200 fates just for one candy of colour

I remember doing that sort of thing for Yo-kai. Plus Shared FATE ranks themselves are around 60 FATEs in each area. I farmed Ultima Thule regularly for Gemstone Vouchers. Overall, I always find it a chill and social experience. No stress, and if you party up you can talk about anything with people who join. Just something to work on each day if got time.

got done with the whole relic in a way shorter time because good rng.

I'm not sure about that. It took me weeks from what I recall. I had lots of Demiatma, but not necessarily of the right type, so I was missing a few key ones. I could have put more focus on one area and instance hopping if I was in a rush, but I wasn't. I wasn't going to hand in anyway because I was collecting data, but even if I wasn't doing that, I'd probably have been in no rush - since as I said I took my time with the Heavensward relic too.

[Khryseis_Astra]

So let me get this straight: Jeeqbit wanted something that lasts more than a day and so would have been actually happy trudging through 200 fates just for one candy of colour, but got done with the whole relic in a way shorter time because good rng. On the other hand, Naia felt it awful to get gated by such a bad rate on 200 fates for a single candy of colour and could have done with something faster there.

Do we still need to pain a picture how stupid this kind of design is and how toxic it's making the community at each other? XIV, the game that always tries to pride itself as avoiding player stress and conflict, literally designs toxic systems constantly.

Exactly. And this is why I hate the RNG aspect of it. It’s not really a grind, it’s luck. And it results in some people being lucky and getting done in a reasonable amount of time, and some who are unlucky still grinding away and getting more frustrated.

I’m curious how many of the those who think the RNG aspect is fine, have already completed their relic or just don’t really care about it that much. I have mine, but I still hated the RNG aspect. It’s not based on effort, I sure as heck didn’t “work for” my relic harder than someone who’s still trying to get their demiatma!

[Genisay]

Oh, it gets better. I am in the correct area to farm the demiatma I need. I know, I have gotten one here. I need one last atma from the Heritage Found region, one last atma period to get my relic, and I have been at it for six days, and have still not seen that last atma. I'm getting so sick of this, I'm about ready to give up on trying to get my relic weapon for now. I've lost track of how many fates I've done at this point, but it has to be well over 200.

I do not mind having grinds in games, they can help extend the longevity of the content, and make the reward feel earned. But this kind of low percentage grind that doesn't even reward your hard work, but is based purely on luck, was exactly one of the things I hated for so many years about WoW, because it made even getting necessary gear for progression a nightmare.
The one saving grace is that at least it's supposed to be 5%, not .1% like WoW was so fond of.
All the same, for someone who has a real life, a job that often demands more than 40hrs a week, and other things to do that mean you don't have all the time in the world, it's not really something I can keep at for six hours a day in the hopes that maybe the RNG will favor me eventually.

[Altina_Orion]

Oh, it gets better. I am in the correct area to farm the demiatma I need. I know, I have gotten one here. I need one last atma from the Heritage Found region, one last atma period to get my relic, and I have been at it for six days, and have still not seen that last atma. I'm getting so sick of this, I'm about ready to give up on trying to get my relic weapon for now. I've lost track of how many fates I've done at this point, but it has to be well over 200.

The full grind, on average, should take ~360 fates.

[Jeeqbit]

At that point would be easier to just wait for CEs here https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/m...miatma_map.jpg

[Raim]

Rather than a 20% droprate it should just be a fixed amount. Just make the relic a bar you fill up over time. Set it to like 1000 and each CE gives you say 10 points and each Fate gives 5. You get roughly the same amount of expected grind, but its determinate, adjustable in the future and can be applied to all sorts of content.