SE: Savage Difficulty Spike and PF Toxicity Shows we need Hard Raids

[Mawlzy]

You and I had this argument before, barring disability there's no "intrinsic" ability to play savage, if you can do normal, you can do savage, and I've linked you resources on how to get started. You learn where to go, you learn your rotation while you learn where to go and you do it. But you know ,it's OK to not like it, it's ok to do OTHER things.

I have a problem with people who don't like savage, come here and ask for the same mechanics but with everything watered down so they can do them (this is what NORMALS are for). Then why do this type of content at all?

Ah right, that was you. I still disagree with your first point. My feeling is Savage requires a skillset that not everyone has nor can develop, particularly when older. (This is usually when Jeeqbit reminds me of Yoshi-P's age, which misses the point.) Suggesting otherwise simply leads to people who genuinely try and fail to suffer frustration. But since we can't prove the point either way, it boils down to opinion.

That said, I can tell you from personal experience and a gaming history that goes back to 1980s arcades, there is no way in hell in Savage I could ever "learn where to go, learn my rotation while I learn where to go, and do it." I simply do not have the memory/rapid recall, nor the hand-eye coordination.

I'm agnostic on whether another tier would be helpful to get more people playing content beyond normal. But if it gave a raiding tier that led to a lower time commitment and time to clear, I don't see anything fundamentally wrong with the idea if it is a light lift for SE. Nor do I understand your objection. You might ultimately get more players and thus easier to pop PFs in the content you enjoy.

[Volgia]

Ah right, that was you. I still disagree with your first point. My feeling is Savage requires a skillset that not everyone has nor can develop, particularly when older. (This is usually when Jeeqbit reminds me of Yoshi-P's age, which misses the point.) Suggesting otherwise simply leads to people who genuinely try and fail to suffer frustration. But since we can't prove the point either way, it boils down to opinion.

That said, I can tell you from personal experience and a gaming history that goes back to 1980s arcades, there is no way in hell in Savage I could ever "learn where to go, learn my rotation while I learn where to go, and do it." I simply do not have the memory/rapid recall, nor the hand-eye coordination.

I'm agnostic on whether another tier would be helpful to get more people playing content beyond normal. But if it gave a raiding tier that led to a lower time commitment and time to clear, I don't see anything fundamentally wrong with the idea if it is a light lift for SE. Nor do I understand your objection. You might ultimately get more players and thus easier to pop PFs in the content you enjoy.

You know, you can develop the memory and rapid reflex, and the hand-eye coordination. It's a skillset, but if you don't wanna commit to learning this that's perfectly fine. Savage isn't a time commitment issue, you can bang your head against the wall if you want, but if you manage to get 7 other people who are willing to learn or are equally skilled you can beat the tier in a couple weeks.

We're talking about the hardest content in the game, I don't want it watered down for people who just wanna put a tick on the checklists on things they did in FFXIV, I want to play with people who enjoy this type of content.

[Mawlzy]

You know, you can develop the memory and rapid reflex, and the hand-eye coordination. It's a skillset, but if you don't wanna commit to learning this that's perfectly fine. Savage isn't a time commitment issue, you can bang your head against the wall if you want, but if you manage to get 7 other people who are willing to learn or are equally skilled you can beat the tier in a couple weeks.

We're talking about the hardest content in the game, I don't want it watered down for people who just wanna put a tick on the checklists on things they did in FFXIV, I want to play with people who enjoy this type of content.

I don't want to take any content away from anyone. Indeed I regard the presence of "the hardest content in the game" as an asset, since it minimizes my contact with a subset of the community that refuses to accept the reality experienced by many others.

As I mentioned, I have been gaming since the 80s. You are asserting you know better than I what my cognitive and physical limitations are. I find that deeply offensive.

[Volgia]

I don't want to take any content away from anyone. Indeed I regard the presence of "the hardest content in the game" as an asset, since it minimizes my contact with a subset of the community that refuses to accept the reality experienced by many others.

As I mentioned, I have been gaming since the 80s. You are asserting you know better than I what my cognitive and physical limitations are. I find that deeply offensive.

You're making an assumption and getting yourself offended, that's pretty much on you, as I said, barring disability anyone can do this content. Whenever they have the time or effort to put themselves through it despite their limitations? That is a different matter. You said yourself you find PvE content tedious and don't wanna do this type of content, why are people who don't wanna engage with this content arguing in favor of watering down? You have no skin in this game.

[Stasya]

OP thinks that savage is like mythic in wow.

[Valence]

I have a problem with people who don't like savage, come here and ask for the same mechanics but with everything watered down so they can do them (this is what NORMALS are for). Then why do this type of content at all?

The thing I really hate is that the devs have been purposely harming the storymode experience by neutering the 4th fights since Stormblood has been a thing and giving us a shitty final fight experience for when experiencing the story for the first time, which frankly, is unhinged. See how much of a joke M8N currently is because of this? Or the older Kefka or Oracle of Darkness fights? They've all been variuous degrees of this since.

[Volgia]

The thing I really hate is that the devs have been purposely harming the storymode experience by neutering the 4th fights since Stormblood has been a thing and giving us a shitty final fight experience for when experiencing the story for the first time, which frankly, is unhinged. See how much of a joke M8N currently is because of this? Or the older Kefka or Oracle of Darkness fights? They've all been variuous degrees of this since.

It's a way to entice you to do the savage version so you can experience the true final fight, but I get it, I think it was especially weird in M8N because M7N felt more like a true fight with the scenario changing so much.

[Mawlzy]

You're making an assumption and getting yourself offended, that's pretty much on you, as I said, barring disability anyone can do this content. Whenever they have the time or effort to put themselves through it despite their limitations? That is a different matter. You said yourself you find PvE content tedious and don't wanna do this type of content, why are people who don't wanna engage with this content arguing in favor of watering down? You have no skin in this game.

I'm not arguing in favor of anything, simply disagreeing with an evidence-free assertion you keep making.

[Volgia]

Aye, it's not my fault that hardcore content is daunting and unappealing to a casual player like myself, and it's also not my fault if hardcore players ever lack for warm bodies to do content with because of the skill wall that Square-Enix built.

Besides, I thought most hardcore players LIKED having gates kept up everywhere, and even gloated over Chaotic in particular recently, so they should be the happiest that the current filter is "working as intended" to keep casual and hardcore players separate in their own pieces of content.

Someday, you will finish Shadowbringers and get to the current end-game, trying out hard content for yourself.

[Hastatus]

However, more generally, you're not going to produce this comfortable funnel from normal --> hard --> savage that significantly increases the number of players who choose to challenge themselves beyond normal.

Probably not, but one must always hope and be willing to try.

I would say the tier's difficulty isn't a spike, rather a return to normalcy because the last tier was a complete joke

Perhaps. But when I talk about the Savage difficulty spike here I intended to mean the difference in difficulty between Normal and Savage, not the differences in difficulty between Savages of different tiers and expansions. Maybe it was a subconscious double entendre.

On Extremes:
The idea that Extremes are in between the difficulty of Normal Raids and Savage Raids is true but they are insufficient for the job of attraction and retention of players for multiple reasons. They are not actually Raids. Normal Raids unlock Savage Raids, and Normal Trials unlock Extreme Trials. There are fewer Extremes: one Extreme to every two Savage Raids. Extremes are almost always released individually while Savage Raids are released in groups of four. Extreme Trials are usually released alongside other content rather than during lulls. When Savage Raids are released there is usually no other or not much other current content. The design of the rewards system for Extremes promotes very fast farming for mounts. The extreme repetition of farming and knowing it will have to likely be 50 to 99 times creates a quick burn. Kind of the opposite problem of Savage Raids where the rewards system tries to promote only one completion per week. The slowness of the gearing system makes Savage a very slow burn. The burn is so slow one has to decide whether the more numerous motivated clearers at the start is more or less important than the gear later that might reduce the time investment in progging. That very slow burn might actually be reducing the total number of participants earlier on. Because interests fade quickly, many don't bother entering the content at all especially when other new current content is added later. Old extremes and Savages would be fun, but other than the single Extreme SE turns into an Unreal every eight months or so there is not much of a chance to find many doing old ones in PF (unsynced mount farms do not count). Even the four-month-old Chaotic is practically dead and the leftover players are not seeing many clears (I spent the past two weekends during bonus hours and saw 3 clears in about 12 hours). It could just be a new temporary trend, but the art/story of the characters in the fights has an impact. The last Extreme with the knight of roses (Cordelia?...nope...Zelenia) is just a blip that appears and disappears like the hologram it is, but Black Cat, Honeybee Lovely, Brute Bomber, Wicked Thunder, Dancing Green, et al are very fun and attractive characters that have a larger role and interact with the WOL in the actual story. It feels like the production values for Raids is improving. If the Extremes were this magic bullet of difficulty content between Normal and Savage Raids why does the tension between players in Savage Raids seem so high? I would love to see more Unreals and Extremes (without excessive mount farms) but that would likely require way more effort on SE's part than copy-pasting and adjusting a few numbers on existing fights: TO ADD ANOTHER SEPARATE OPTIONAL DIFFICULTY MODE, NOT TO COMPLETELY REPLACE THE CURRENT DIFFICULTY MODE (just to be clear).

But how would the gearing work?

Good question. I thought about discussing this but it felt a little off-topic so I left it out of my original post.

On Rewards:

Hard Raids:Drops upgraded Historia Gear; Mount won by completing Hard Raids on every job class (achievement mount).
Savage Raids: Drops Babyface Gear and market-sellable upgrade materials for Historia gear (intended to be sold to normal players); Mount drop.

Forget the weekly lockouts in Hard Raids. If you want to farm gear, farm gear...that's more players playing each week and the freedom to gear any job you want without having to plan out one job weeks ahead of time. If all that gear and practice makes you feel done, move onto Savage. I really don't know if it would be better or worse to keep weekly lock outs in the Savage Raids. Under the current system I often find myself wanting to go help others clear a Savage but decide against because finding anychests at the same time that I have an itch is rare. If there were Hard Raids to fall back on, I guess Savage could keep the weekly lockouts too. The main idea is that Hard Raiders would have access to good gear quickly but Savage Raiders could still get all BiS. Upgrade materials would only be needed by those who do not do Hard or Savage Raids. *** It would be too harsh to lock a mount behind a MINE Savage so I would create a challenge achievement of some sort that could be done to earn the same mount in Hard Raids too. Such an achievement would give more players another reason to participate in Hard Raids.

People who want savage content but easier are just lazy.

I have a problem with people who don't like savage, come here and ask for the same mechanics but with everything watered down so they can do them.

I love Savage, but I'm not in a monogamous relationship with it. I like all kinds and levels of challenge. I love playing with people at all skill levels in content that suits their skill level (i.e. where they are having fun). I'm sorry you only see and imagine the worst in people and their motives. I do like the existing Savage Fights a lot and will do them. I'm just waiting until the average random PF Savage Raider has enough gear to clear the adds in M6S. I also see the unnecessary tensions that arise from the way the difficulty levels in this game are implemented. People's skill levels are on a bell curve but the amount of content vs difficulty is like an inverted bell curve (and yes obviously shorter on the tougher side). Can you not imagine or empathize with people at lower skill levels or lower endurance levels? Why must someone who advocates for variety automatically be an unskilled player? I might have more Chaotic clears than most players and yet I still think there should have been a slightly less strict version for other players to enjoy. Maybe a good player wants to drink a little while playing. Some people age and are closer to death than their birth. Why are you so afraid of an extra mode? Would someone clearing M6H diminish your clear of M6S? I'm sorry if you could not possibly have fun playing both Hard and Savage Raids with different types of people in different states of mind. *** You do realize that the current way Savage works is exactly that it is getting watered down over long periods of time by the way the gear is released right? Maybe it's so slow you never realized it or never thought of it that way. It is the very reason another poster was angrily afraid my solution would make a MINE Savage impossible for some to clear because it would never get watered down. My world first race comment was probably over the top: I don't know how to describe what SE is aiming for when they tune. [But to be clear I do not try to world first anything...except fishing.] But thanks to the two of you for proving my point that Savage seems to easily bring out negative emotions in some people.