Saint Shiva, Menphina, and the Tragedy of Hraesvelgr

[unlimitedBLACK]

For your consideration:

To situate this in the timeline, go back to the early part of the Sixth Astral Era. The mortal Shiva's desire to never be separated from Hraesvelgr resulted in her death, and this love is what inspired the formation of a joint community of mortals and dragons in Dravania, above and below the demesne of Sohm Al. For whatever reason, the game's lore hasn't been explicit about giving a name for this society, but based on the region in the Dravanian Forelands called "Avalonia Fallen" I'm advocating for "Avalonia" as the catch-all term for the Skylord/Landlord stuff in Dravania and the Churning Mists.

Now, consider the possibility that the mortal Shiva was sainted mainly by followers of Menphina, as Shiva's sacrifice in the name of love brought about a miraculous peace and harmony between dragons and mortals. The idea that Menphina would look kindly on the romantic-but-tragic aspects of Shiva's love for Hraesvelgr, and that this would be something that would thus resonate with Menphina's followers as they appealed for peace and love in Avalonia, feels like a very plausible accent to Shiva's story.

Add in the following details indicating how Ysayle's primal of Shiva shares some qualities with Menphina:

• The association with the element of Ice.
• Having a semi-monstrous canine companion (Fenrir for Ysayle/Primal Shiva, opposite Dalamud for Menphina, with an aside of pointing out the similar parallel in FF16 with Shiva's Dominant, Jill Warwick, and best boy frost hound Torgal).

This is also part of a larger thesis that centers on deducing which Eorzean city-states revered which of the Twelve as their patrons during the Fifth Astral Era. We only know four of those city-states (Amdapor, Mhach, Nym, and Skalla) and we only have explicit knowledge of two of those patrons (Nophica for Amdapor and Oschon for Nym), so that means that there are a lot of unknown 5AE city-states across a wide swath of Eorzea who need patron deities.

Along those lines, the Mark of Menphina is in the Coerthas Central Highlands. While we know Coerthas is presently very ice-aligned, we know that prior to the 7UC it looked more similar to Il Mheg/Voeburt on the First... which is a territory that would feel rather appropriate for Menphina as a Goddess of Love.

All of this to say that if Menphina was the patron god of a particular city-state during the 5AE, the possibility that it was a city-state in Coerthas or Dravania (particularly around Sohm Al) that was destroyed in the War of the Magi and subsequently replaced with Avalonia and (later) Ishgard feels plausible.

To get a bit more behind the scenes here, I feel like a big project for Oda (and/or the creative collective around Oda on the broader team) was to infuse Menphina with properties that would differentiate her from the more traditional depictions of a goddess of love: where Aphrodite, for example, is presented as voluptuous, flirtatious, and often focused on fertility and the physical aspect of love (i.e. seggs), Menphina is more innocent. Menphina's design reads younger, the kind of love she describes is easy to interpret as a platonic love, or even the sort of one-sided semi-romantic infatuation that a student might have for an upperclassman or teacher, where acting upon it would be scandalous but the NOTION of it reads like a shoujo manga.

I say all of this to try and nail down that there's a very intentional read of Saint Shiva's bond with Hraesvelgr that is a kind of chaste devotion, which echoes the sensibilities of Menphina's characterization. While I don't think that'll ever stop the dragon-banger allegations (both in the fandom, because we're all very horny, and in-universe, because maligning Saint Shiva as a Jezebel who debased herself with dragon-bestiality was TOTES a project for the Holy See) it's an aspect that I think warrants more attention, especially given the other listed parallels with Menphina that Shiva (whether the saint or the primal) possesses.

Anyhow, your thoughts?

[MikkoAkure]

To situate this in the timeline, go back to the early part of the Sixth Astral Era. The mortal Shiva's desire to never be separated from Hraesvelgr resulted in her death, and this love is what inspired the formation of a joint community of mortals and dragons in Dravania, above and below the demesne of Sohm Al. For whatever reason, the game's lore hasn't been explicit about giving a name for this society, but based on the region in the Dravanian Forelands called "Avalonia Fallen" I'm advocating for "Avalonia" as the catch-all term for the Skylord/Landlord stuff in Dravania and the Churning Mists.

Avalonia does seem to be the term used in the game for the Dragon-Elezen home.

Now, consider the possibility that the mortal Shiva was sainted mainly by followers of Menphina, as Shiva's sacrifice in the name of love brought about a miraculous peace and harmony between dragons and mortals. The idea that Menphina would look kindly on the romantic-but-tragic aspects of Shiva's love for Hraesvelgr, and that this would be something that would thus resonate with Menphina's followers as they appealed for peace and love in Avalonia, feels like a very plausible accent to Shiva's story.

I think this might be a bit of a reach though. Ishgard predates Avalonia and any peace with the dragons by at least a decade and it began with a basilica devoted to Halone as she was their patron deity for a time before they even settled Coerthas. The first Ishgardians were nomadic Elezen fleeing central Aldenard/Twelveswood from encroaching Hyur populations and were practically pushed into Coerthas. It's not their native land and wasn't their ideal spot to live. They would have had no connection at all to any pre-Ishgardian population of Coerthas and while the existence of two cultures fighting over and then coexisting on another Shard in the same location could imply that the area would be suitable for other civilizations as well, there are no ruins that suggests there were any on the Source. The weather was already cold even before 7UC and the presence of dragons would have also deterred settlement. Coerthas was the last choice of a desperate people.

As for Shiva herself, she was only a saint to Halonic worshipers (and later dragon-worshiping heretics), not to Menphina worshipers. Officially canonized saints of specific gods are chosen by Sharlayan's Council of Loetstym and Shiva is not one of them. But the Church of Halone seems to have its own separate sainthood and she and some other Ishgardians are referred to as saints in their own, separate canon.

[unlimitedBLACK]

Ishgard predates Avalonia and any peace with the dragons by at least a decade

I thought the order of operations was

1. Hraesvelgr consumes Shiva
2. peace between dragons and mortals for awhile <-- this is where Avalonia should exist
3. Ratatoskr gets unalived by Thordan and his knights
4. Nidhogg starts the DSW and gets mad with Hraesvelgr won't help him, SPECIFICALLY because Hraesvelgr's oath to Shiva prevents him from joining an assault on the mortals
5. Thordan's surviving knights establish Ishgard as their citadel to defend against the dragons

Am I remembering things wrong?

[MikkoAkure]

I thought the order of operations was

1. Hraesvelgr consumes Shiva
2. peace between dragons and mortals for awhile <-- this is where Avalonia should exist
3. Ratatoskr gets unalived by Thordan and his knights
4. Nidhogg starts the DSW and gets mad with Hraesvelgr won't help him, SPECIFICALLY because Hraesvelgr's oath to Shiva prevents him from joining an assault on the mortals
5. Thordan's surviving knights establish Ishgard as their citadel to defend against the dragons

Am I remembering things wrong?

According to what I can find the order is:

1. Elezen flee Hyur expansion and a group of them settle in Coerthas where a collection of villages around the shrine to Halone becomes Ishgard.
2. Hraesvelgr consumes Shiva.
3. Peace between dragons and humans (Avalonia would date to this time period).
4. 200 years later Thordan and his knights kill Ratatoskr and the Dragonsong War begins.
5. At some point later, the church and the High Houses invent a false history where Thordan was led to Coerthas by Halone and that Nidhogg attacked the caravan of settlers and that Avalonia was made by heretics.