Rewards vs pvp integrity

[Valence]

All this talk about cutting rewards for losers in FL or not, about freeloaders for roulettes, people throwing on purpose, etc, made me think that you'll probably never solve this conundrum fully: adding rewards will essentially draw in people from other parts of the MMO that just want said rewards but hate the mode or just don't want to engage enough with it, and will also encourage people that actually enjoy the mode to "optimize" their investment to get to said rewards better or faster.

This is not a hazard that in current FL a lot of the population is just there to level up their jobs. It's not completely binary and black and white, some may hate the mode, some may like it, some may be okay with it and the xp is the motivator that makes them queue for it either way. Cut this out and FL becomes a dead mode, much like if you cut the crystal series and casual will peter out as well.

This is not a hazard either that the more rewards we have had in the competitive ranked pvp modes in XIV, the more win trading and obnoxious toxic behavior has happened, because rewards were limited in nature. Currently there is a lack of rewards to keep people engaged into ranked which is something that has been universally panned by the ranked pvp crowd, but I truly wonder what would happen were we to get seasonal top 100 mounts and unique gear and whatnot?

I'm not sure there is a true and serious answer there. This is a MMO community and it's inherently driven by rewards. Put this in stark contrast with a lot of multiplayer games where even if the multiplayer population still remains a minority (solo, campaign/story and co-op modes are always more populated than ranked no matter the game), the rewards are generally pathetic if there is even some, yet they do play ranked consistently. It's not the case with XIV, where people don't play the sport for the sport itself fully.

[Burmecia]

hmm, taking exp earnings (or "earnings") away would kill especially frontline.
some people afking and acting like tools because they're there only for exp are tradeoff for not dead pvp.

i prefer it this way. rather than having pvp being ghosttown, where very small group of veterans are killing each other day in and day -- without even some exp to show for it.

...we aren't talking CC muppets calling for Feast FOMO to make comeback, right?

[Aidorouge]

Eh, I was barely playing for rewards already (I don't need the XP, marks, poetics, or even the trophy crystals), and it was the Series rewards that was keeping me queuing at all despite how little fun I was having. (And now that I'm done, I see no reason to keep playing until 7.3.) I was getting worn on Frontlines before Dawntrail admittedly because premades were that suffocating and AFKers were plentiful, but every change starting from 7.1 onward has turned it from a game mode with the occasional highlight into a chore I did out of obligation.

Which is probably the biggest issue with PVP as a whole (Frontline and otherwise) is how many people are actually enjoying it versus just tolerating it? Even a lot of the people who say they "just want to play with friends" often admit that's the ONLY highlight for them queuing at all, to the point it's why some of them refuse to play Crystalline Conflict (no friends no point), and it might also explain some of the other behavior we see from both leechers and throwers if they're "making their own fun" because the mode its self just isn't doing it for them.

And then we've got poor Rival Wings. No roulette bonus means nobody cares about it, and when it IS profitable for rewards during mogtomes, it brings out the worst behavior in people and you can watch in real time just how negatively impactful premades, padders, AFKers, and leechers are tempered only by the fact that at least the pain ends quickly. It showcases exactly what happens when you give both too little and too much of something and where the gameplay alone has never been the selling point, and Frontlines would be even worse off because you need even more people to make it pop and it takes much longer for the end to come once things go badly for one team.

[Mawlzy]

Seem to recall there are some specific rewards/achievements that tend to encourage people to play badly. Like isn't there one for capping nodes on Seal? I assumed this was the reason some players head directly to a point as far from the battle as possible and just sit there.

[Aidorouge]

Seem to recall there are some specific rewards/achievements that tend to encourage people to play badly. Like isn't there one for capping nodes on Seal? I assumed this was the reason some players head directly to a point as far from the battle as possible and just sit there.

It's also the map people seem most inclined to split on just to grab new nodes instead of staying to fight for what they have (whereas with Onsal its the opposite where people tunnel-vision on mid so hard and ignore the rest), going deep into enemy territory for nodes (dying for them if they have to), pinching 3rd place for their nodes instead of fighting 1st over no-nodes, and even people DELIBERATELY letting nodes they've taken be stolen so they have a chance to take them back (this one doesn't happen as often, but it DOES happen).

Seize, at least for me, is hands down the one map I see the most amount of bone-headed calls and decisions on because people obsess/neglect the nodes in ways they don't on other maps, and I would bet money the achievements are partially to blame. Anecdotally, it's also the one map I've seen the most one-sided stomps and throwers on (and it was Seize I got kicked for that one time) and it's not like I play it more than the others. On the contrary, it's "that one map" for me that I try to play as little as possible when in rotation because it never ceases to be frustrating to win or lose because either my team is being completely stupid, or the other teams are.

[ThreeBeastSmile]

You can't change attitude with a fingersnap solution, as that's what this is, an attitude problem. When the reaction is almost an abhorred shock that you're actually, and I mean actually, are playing a mode just for the mode upon being asked why. Attitude problem. Justification for that contempt typically includes something or rather "game has nasty netcode y u do", "pvp is bad in general". Acknowledgeable? Sure. But still all subjective. I think why does netball even exist when there's basketball? Which to me is just a better version of the same game, but if someone is getting enjoyment out of it who am I to judge? Some people might play both because they just happen to enjoy ball games (and netball is even on the rise where I live...) That's my stance with pvp, and why I partake of it even in this game. I like to fight people when it's an option, even if the venue is merely passable. At least it isn't p2w automated, that's a line drawn. I can still move freely and have real-time control over my actions even when there's a hardcoded delay.

Either way, personally, my motivation levels are very weakly influenced by rewards. I'll stop when I'm no longer having fun regardless of whether or not I've hit a milestone, much like how I've quit raiding and pve for the most part in this game (until it might pick up again in 8.0). That being a seeming minority take... to put it plainly, is flabbergasting (the playing for enjoyment angle). But you just can't change something inherent at the flick of a switch. It's frustrating that others can seem so fickle in their NEED for a tangible reward in order to do anything, but it is what it is. It makes everything more bland. But I guess that's a reflection of the mindset of someone that would... yeah, focus on clicking tomeliths and not actually fighting in a battleground just to make number go up on the "achievement" panel. Bland.

Game could always use more pvp variety too, that would help a bunch probably. Finally, as a sidenote... I'm also not sure why "playing for fun" and one's output being of a higher standard can't go hand in hand neither. That I can't be playing for fun simply for injecting some finesse (p.s. not in a premade). It's such a strange logic, but one I've seen invoked.

[ThaCa]

I think the main solution for these problems is giving multiple ways to get most rewards, surely it might depopulate some activities but it would be great for player enjoyment.

If I could grind MGP by playing PvP or level up Jobs by playing Mahjong for example, I would do it in a heartbeat.

As for the PvP part of the issue that tends to lead to cheating, there's not many solutions beyond SQEX actually doing their job and properly moderating it. I think making most rewards eventually achievable would help a lot, letting practically any rank farm scaleable currency (based on rank) could help and if there's like Top 300 locked stuff, then allowing them to buy all the previous stuff if they have enough currency by reaching the Rank in current Season would probably help.