Calyx and Preservation

[Shookbeast]

I too would like to know more about Preservation, and worry 7.3 won’t be enough time to fully introduce them (if there is a them, and not just the brains of Calyx’s parents or some such hand-waivy thing).

However, maybe 7.3 is just wrapping up the Tural storyline, and the remaining patches leading into 8.0 will be similar to the Zero arc, but focus on Preservation? We do have a big empty zone that could be reused - and with Zero’s story, the developers weren’t afraid to introduce smaller zones, and then lock us out of them. (Still not sure why we can’t revisit Zero’s home. So odd.)

Thinking on Calyx - I wonder if we’re the villain in his eyes? Depending on how or from who he learned about sundering/reflections, he may have very strong opinions on Venat, and by extension, our WOLs.

After all, it was Venat’s self-admitted haphazard plan that left frail mortals with bodies susceptible to the elements. And Venat also left the Ascians around to cause trouble. Her answer to the problem of “save no one or save some” may seem deeply flawed to Calyx, leading him to mount his own series of “solutions.”

Does he partially blame us for his frail human body? Maybe not. But he might see us as accomplices to a cause he finds faulty to the core.

Calyx may wonder why Venat simply didn’t do what he did, and make the Endless?

(But what if those memory crystals that Emet made… including Azem’s makeshift one - are what inspired the Endless to begin with?)

Edit: Extra Thought
In some ways, aren’t Calyx’s creations, the Endless, an altered version of the Ancients’ idea of Concepts? Aether powered beings, who seem to have no “soul.” Hermes might want to have a word about shutting down Living Memory.

[mallleable]

A thing to consider are the parallels with FF9's story. My prediction is that 7.3 is going to have Memoria as a dungeon, and Necron as a trial. Dawntrail's conflict will be resolved in 7.3. 7.4 will have The Festival of The Hunt as a dungeon (which will pair nicely with us rising to grand champion of the heavyweight tier.), but the trial is harder to pin down, maybe another Vidraal, a victory lap. Dawntrail ends here. 7.5 is even harder to guess as it is going to mostly be 8.0 set up.

[Levinphos]

In some ways, aren’t Calyx’s creations, the Endless, an altered version of the Ancients’ idea of Concepts? Aether powered beings, who seem to have no “soul.” Hermes might want to have a word about shutting down Living Memory.

The Endless are closer to the phenomenon explored in the Dark Knight quests where the aetherial residue (memories) of an individual—Fray Myste—etched into a job crystal manifests a facsimile of said individual in the presence of sufficient aether. Fray's situation differs from the Endless in that he was able to manifest at will and was largely limited to interacting with the WoL bearing the DRK job crystal, whereas which Endless were able to manifest was regulated by the Meso Terminal and that they could interact more directly with the environment.

Overall, we have fewer instances of the Ancients directly interacting with aetherial residue (memories) until the Convocation and Venat went about their plans to save the star. I would suspect that they archived an individual's memories before they chose to return to the aetherial sea, but AFAIK that isn't stated outright. However, what we see the Ascians do with the convocation crystals to restore their numbers (as Emet-Selch did to Amon, restoring Fandaniel, and as Mitron attempted to do to Gaia) is more akin to using stored aetherial residue to stamp memories and personality onto an individual, which would be akin to trying to overwrite a living individual with the data of an Endless.

[Shookbeast]

The Endless are closer to the phenomenon explored in the Dark Knight quests where the aetherial residue (memories) of an individual—Fray Myste—etched into a job crystal manifests a facsimile of said individual in the presence of sufficient aether. Fray's situation differs from the Endless in that he was able to manifest at will and was largely limited to interacting with the WoL bearing the DRK job crystal, whereas which Endless were able to manifest was regulated by the Meso Terminal and that they could interact more directly with the environment.

Overall, we have fewer instances of the Ancients directly interacting with aetherial residue (memories) until the Convocation and Venat went about their plans to save the star. I would suspect that they archived an individual's memories before they chose to return to the aetherial sea, but AFAIK that isn't stated outright. However, what we see the Ascians do with the convocation crystals to restore their numbers (as Emet-Selch did to Amon, restoring Fandaniel, and as Mitron attempted to do to Gaia) is more akin to using stored aetherial residue to stamp memories and personality onto an individual, which would be akin to trying to overwrite a living individual with the data of an Endless.

How scary that would be, if it were weaponized…

I suppose it’s also similar in concept, if not in execution, to the souls that were waiting to be brought back with Zodiark. In that case though, they were literal souls waiting for bodies, where as the Endless are copies of personalities with no current plans to take over bodies.

Does Calyx truly want a world without flesh, and only digital personalities? Or will we find out he’s a villain who is more “do what I say, not what I do.”

[mallleable]

Since it has the Azem logo on, that indicates it's something done in official capacity as the seat of Azem doesn't it? Think this was mentioned in Elpis regarding the masks or possibly shadowbringers in the dossal gate room. As Venat retired, it'd be pretty weird for her to use that mark on the dimension exploder assuming it was made after she retired and the Elpis bootstrap.
It also makes it a bit odd that it would react to the player-Azem crystal, which shouldn't have had anything to do with Venat, being made by Hades in memory of the dead Azem.

And that's why I think there is a possibility it's not of Ancient creation. Why would our Azem make a device that is capable of dimensional fusion which would undo Venat's sundering? And how would pre-sundered Azem know how to make such a device that works in a world they are not, and will not be a part of? And on a meta level, Azem leaving our character the gift of a device that is capable of traveling anywhere is kind of game breaking. Which leads me to believe that our Azem or Venat during her time as Azem found the device during their adventures, and maybe put a protective seal on it.

[Shookbeast]

And that's why I think there is a possibility it's not of Ancient creation. Why would our Azem make a device that is capable of dimensional fusion which would undo Venat's sundering? And how would pre-sundered Azem know how to make such a device that works in a world they are not, and will not be a part of? And on a meta level, Azem leaving our character the gift of a device that is capable of traveling anywhere is kind of game breaking. Which leads me to believe that our Azem or Venat during her time as Azem found the device during their adventures, and maybe put a protective seal on it.

I agree it’s suspicious. That’s part of the reason why I think it’ll turn out our WOL or someone from our team is responsible for the key due to time travel shenanigans.

[Cleretic]

And that's why I think there is a possibility it's not of Ancient creation. Why would our Azem make a device that is capable of dimensional fusion which would undo Venat's sundering? And how would pre-sundered Azem know how to make such a device that works in a world they are not, and will not be a part of? And on a meta level, Azem leaving our character the gift of a device that is capable of traveling anywhere is kind of game breaking. Which leads me to believe that our Azem or Venat during her time as Azem found the device during their adventures, and maybe put a protective seal on it.

Actually, it's a fair assumption that its chief purpose is dimensional travel, not fusion; the lalafel didn't graft Aloalo Island onto the Ninth, they traveled there. To ask 'why would Azem make a tool capable of dimensional fusion' is probably like asking 'why would the Wright Brothers create something capable of destroying a building': they didn't, other people brought the creation to that conclusion.

...except that there's a different problem that's also at play with this presumption, that we also hit if we're talking about dimensional travel: the other dimensions did not exist at the time Azem was around. Why create a tool with the express purpose of traveling to a location that literally doesn't exist? Especially given we're not exactly talking about seasoned geniuses in the subject; I don't even know who in Ancient society would be able to predict where the shards would be on a dimensional-physical level (which I can only imagine would be unfathomably difficult, you can't exactly point on a map and go 'there'), but I wouldn't put that bet on Azem.

This is why my suspicion with the key is that it wasn't made by Azem: it was made afterwards, by people evoking Azem's symbol and story after it had faded into legend. That makes a lot more sense to me; the other shards confirmably exist at that point, and the key isn't realistically that much of a leap beyond later tech we've seen. It'd have to be from a group we haven't seen before, but there's a lot of gaps in the game's worldbuilding to fit new, interesting locations.

Also it'd mean we wouldn't get a rehash of the least interesting zone in Endwalker to me, and that'd be great too.

[mallleable]

Actually, it's a fair assumption that its chief purpose is dimensional travel, not fusion; the lalafel didn't graft Aloalo Island onto the Ninth, they traveled there. To ask 'why would Azem make a tool capable of dimensional fusion' is probably like asking 'why would the Wright Brothers create something capable of destroying a building': they didn't, other people brought the creation to that conclusion.

...except that there's a different problem that's also at play with this presumption, that we also hit if we're talking about dimensional travel: the other dimensions did not exist at the time Azem was around. Why create a tool with the express purpose of traveling to a location that literally doesn't exist? Especially given we're not exactly talking about seasoned geniuses in the subject; I don't even know who in Ancient society would be able to predict where the shards would be on a dimensional-physical level (which I can only imagine would be unfathomably difficult, you can't exactly point on a map and go 'there'), but I wouldn't put that bet on Azem.

This is why my suspicion with the key is that it wasn't made by Azem: it was made afterwards, by people evoking Azem's symbol and story after it had faded into legend. That makes a lot more sense to me; the other shards confirmably exist at that point, and the key isn't realistically that much of a leap beyond later tech we've seen. It'd have to be from a group we haven't seen before, but there's a lot of gaps in the game's worldbuilding to fit new, interesting locations.

Also it'd mean we wouldn't get a rehash of the least interesting zone in Endwalker to me, and that'd be great too.

Or another faction who know how to navigate the interdimensional rift.

[Shookbeast]

Actually, it's a fair assumption that its chief purpose is dimensional travel, not fusion; the lalafel didn't graft Aloalo Island onto the Ninth, they traveled there. To ask 'why would Azem make a tool capable of dimensional fusion' is probably like asking 'why would the Wright Brothers create something capable of destroying a building': they didn't, other people brought the creation to that conclusion.

...except that there's a different problem that's also at play with this presumption, that we also hit if we're talking about dimensional travel: the other dimensions did not exist at the time Azem was around. Why create a tool with the express purpose of traveling to a location that literally doesn't exist? Especially given we're not exactly talking about seasoned geniuses in the subject; I don't even know who in Ancient society would be able to predict where the shards would be on a dimensional-physical level (which I can only imagine would be unfathomably difficult, you can't exactly point on a map and go 'there'), but I wouldn't put that bet on Azem.

This is why my suspicion with the key is that it wasn't made by Azem: it was made afterwards, by people evoking Azem's symbol and story after it had faded into legend. That makes a lot more sense to me; the other shards confirmably exist at that point, and the key isn't realistically that much of a leap beyond later tech we've seen. It'd have to be from a group we haven't seen before, but there's a lot of gaps in the game's worldbuilding to fit new, interesting locations.

Also it'd mean we wouldn't get a rehash of the least interesting zone in Endwalker to me, and that'd be great too.

There’s always Ultima. That’s also a theory being put forward, and maybe it has some legs? Do we know if Venat made up the idea of Sundering/Reflections all on her own… or did she maybe encounter something that gave her the idea that inter-dimensional reflections/travel were possible?

And if that’s the case - maaaaaaybe Calyx didn’t learn about reflections from the Ascians - but instead learned from a version of Ultima?

[Cleretic]

Do we know if Venat made up the idea of Sundering/Reflections all on her own… or did she maybe encounter something that gave her the idea that inter-dimensional reflections/travel were possible?

The answer to that is time-paradoxical. Regardless of whether or not she or another person could have come up with the idea itself, chronologically speaking we gave her that idea. We didn't give her the idea of how it could have worked, and it's entirely possible she or one of her allies could've come up with that answer independently (and they definitely did come up with a lot of stuff independently), but if we're asking where she got the baseline idea, it was us.

I think overall with this, people are getting too stuck on the Ancient/Ascians, despite at-best tenuous evidence. I think there's more evidence against Calyx being directly involved with the Ascians than there is evidence for (if anything I think he'd directly oppose them), and the case for the key being directly Ancient-related might be even worse. But here we are, seeing people dig a hole because the map they drew themselves says there's treasure at the bottom.