Tanks need more than just TankBusters

[Valence]

I am fully aware we are talking about auto attacks. But just to point out, they really weren't threatening in ARR either, even with crits. Also, just checking a couple of videos (Ifrit EX in 2.1, M8S and Recollection Ex), and the auto attacks are looking to do the same amount of % damage to the tank. So it isn't that attacks have got weaker, it is more that the kits are better suited to dealing with them.

Who said those autos were "threatening"? Can you define threatening? Do you mean "will oneshot if you don't mitigate"?
Those autos forced healing and mitigation to be used, and managing said resources.
You're also absolutely disingenuous if you think that autos have remained the same since then, because first, they have stopped critting, and two, currently in most fights bosses barely throw a couple of them because they're busy casting long ass mechanics by recentering themselves in the middle of the room. I shouldn't have to explain how this is not even comparable. And you mention it yourself on top of it: tools have changed and we have a lot more of them, yet autos haven't changed by your take. So what will it be?

In the case of using a skill and hoping it procs to reduce damage, no, it isn't skilful, that is luck.

By your logic then neither is using a skill by knowing it will reduce damage. That is just certainty.
The whole point isn't hoping it reduces damage anyway. You can make the mitigation 100% and keep a lower % of proc rate for the damage abilities you'd get out of it, that's the whole point of the concept, but don't seem interested in considering what it could bring in terms variations and engagement.

This is different to RNG procs and would be an example of skilful play.

Then elaborate, because I am not seeing the difference between pressing low blow when it resets or pressing PP when you get a proc?

Of which this is then different to the initial claim I made that pressing a defensive and hoping it reduces damage is not skilful play.

Then you're fighting strawmen and windmills at this point. It's never been about that.

Yes, varying mitigation is good, but the context you used was Dark Dance for boss auto attacks, not dungeon trash.

And so? Dark Dance is better than nothing. It's actually a good tool to mitigate a constant stream of damage and hits.
But that's the thing, you want predictability (and boredom), I want reactionary gameplay. I don't think you're wrong for liking the former, but you're trying to assert that the latter is non functional in tank design, which is absurd. It's only non functional in the case of current binary busters that require the mitigation to function at all times else you die.

Then why did you not mention this. Also, Dark Dance is bad for crits as crits bypass any parry chance, same with Blocking on Paladins. No reason why this couldn't be changed, just thought it should be mentioned.

I literally did mention it. Re-read the thread please.

"Bring back boss crits, serious and constant autos, bring back semi randomized party hits, bring back prey mechanics that have to be covered. Put people on their toes, but that's definitely a different paradigm and approach"
"with copious amounts of constant autos AND rng crit autos, which bring variations to prevent boredom"
"Again filler content and white noise doesn't have to be part of mit plans. It just requires people to adjust to random little events and express their skill with it. "

How do you want me to make it clearer?

And thank your for the reminder about crits. Doesn't make DD useless anyway. Doesn't prove anything.
You could have different skills targeting Crits and... oh but we actually had one of those didn't we? Awareness it was. It was there for a reason back then.

Current Bulwark is good for it as it does guarantee blocks now, in the past it wouldn't have been and it was common knowledge back then that you didn't use Bulwark on tank busters for the very reason it was unreliable.

That's what I'm saying. Bulwark wasn't used on busters back then unless you literally had to. Your point?

And no, trash is normally dead before I even have to think about getting that far into my defensive rotations in dungeons.

Today or back then? If you answer back then, big doubt.

Who bought up mit plans? Probably me. Due to, you know, having to plan where you use mitigation in a fight. Even if it is just for auto attacks, it is going to be 'planned' in somewhere, it is just going to be really unreliable. Also, we have been over this, fights have always been scripted, nothing has changed except fights needing more precision in how you handle mechanics and you have to plan more.

We have been over this doesn't mean that I suddenly do agree with your takes, because the past proves me right. You want to paint it as identical as today, but that's a lie. It's not about the script, it's about the little rng and white noise that happens in the background. If you don't use your bulwark on busters in its past version, then you're now free to use it to deal with this other layer of mitigation and help your healers, and preserve resources. That's what we had in the past and that you do not want to remember.

I just don't think you are quite understanding the angle I am coming from. You can have boss autos crits if you want, but not to the point where you start requiring mitigation in order to survive and the example you use is Dark Dance, a defensive that was reliant on RNG to reduce damage. You have to look past the initial suggestion and look to see what the ramifications of that suggestion actually has. It isn't as simple as just adding another defensive, as that can have other consequences down the road.

You're fighting against strawmen again.

[PyurBlue]

I mean, I kinda even do. Or rather in the context of FFXIV I do, it's kinda "its thing". It's what you'd tell people about how FFXIV differs, "it's a ballet for 8-14 minutes", like you tell people about GW2's open world focus, that kind of stuff.

That's fair. It's certainly part of FF14's content design, but for me it was never a selling point. I know that there are different opinions on this though.

you can very much have "For these 20 seconds, the boss just autoattacks + does some form of raid damage on each autoattack" as a rigid step in the raid, but at the same time what the boss will do there you do not know.

There are many, many ways to add randomness to the game. At one extreme you can have a set sequence of events with small variations on a fixed schedule. At 1 minute the boss will do X or Y, you don't know which, but you do know that something will happen at 1 minute. The other extreme is random without constraint. The boss is completely unpredictable and no two instances of the boss fight will ever be the same. What I want are encounters where I can use skills and knowledge that I've built up to figure out solutions then and there instead of having a script and sticking to it.

A fixed boss pattern with random events is better than one with no variation but it's still going to be more of a memory test I think. Something is going to happen at 1 minute and then again at two minutes, so you memorize plan A and plan B and pick one accordingly. I'd rather not know when anything is going to happen and have to come up with my plan in real time.

What’s the appeal of the big damage happening at random times?

It creates a need to concentrate on what you're doing. Healing/Mitigating in a lot of content can be done on autopilot because you know exactly when there is going to be damage, and how much. The most interesting part of healing/mitigating for me is when people make mistakes because it's random. It's also the only way to even remotely stress healers with the amount of heals available. Even when blind in new fights it's pretty safe to use a lot of your heals on cooldown. Abilities like Assize and Earthly Star can be thrown out without regard for incoming damage and you're fine most of the time. The same for party mitigation like Veil and Shake. I find it a bit boring. It's less true in higher difficulties, but in that case you just need to memorize the few times that you need to hold the ability and then just do that.

It feels like it would be similar to when you’re progging a fight and don’t remember when the busters happen, and just press your short mit + one other thing every time you notice that the cast bar is happening (or whatever the tell is for the damage).

If the castbar isn't totally predictable this can at least create an element of on the fly mitigation management. It can also lead to natural tank swapping instead of the forced tank swapping we get through things like statuses.

It feels to me like tankbusters are fun when they’re actually part of mechanics, which makes them a lot more interesting than the usual “tanks stand north and press a couple mits, the rest of the party standa south and just hits the boss.” And IMO the best ones are mechanics for the whole party (like EX1 Mountain Fire, or DSR Hallowed Wing) so they’re not just standing around.

TB's with additional mechanics beyond "press mit to live" are fun. I think they would also benefit from being less predictable.

But it is still planned. You might have 2 different routes depending on what comes first, but that is still a plan. No matter what a fight does, you need to have the resources available to deal with it. If the boss tank busters you several times in a row, you are going to die as you run out of defensives, so even in designing fights, there is a level of planning required so the party doesn't get wiped out due to something out of their control.

Right, there can still be plans, just not as rigid. A situation with two routes isn't quite what I want either. That's not that different than having one route. I don't want there to be routes at all. As an example the boss might have a number of abilities it can use, but no fixed time or order for them. Maybe it has 5 TB's. It could use them all in a row as soon as the fight starts, or open with two and save 3 for the end. Having a limited number is one way to keep unwinnable edges cases out of the equation, like tankbusters happening for literally the entire fight. There are a lot of ways to do this like making TB's random and unlimited in number but giving them a cooldown between uses, etc.

[Voryn]

currently in most fights bosses barely throw a couple of them because they're busy casting long ass mechanics by recentering themselves in the middle of the

It feels like in Dawntail’s Savage we’re occasionally having the moments where a mechanic is happening and the boss is doing autos the whole time, but it really ought to be more frequent. These encounters are like 10+ minutes long and it’s hard to remember more than 2-3 moments per encounter where the autos are notable.

It also does feel a little silly when we have the strong 40% mitigation abilities that can be saved for busters. Then in the occasional case there’s a lot of autos, the player can just press whatever they want as long as the 40% or invuln is not used.

Eg. M2S: a lot of autos during Beat 1, then a buster soon after that, and then a lot of autos during Alarm 1 right after that. But in practice this isn’t really that threatening because tanks can handle all the autos before and after the buster by using whatever they want other than whichever ability they’re going to use on the buster.

[Absurdity]

currently in most fights bosses barely throw a couple of them because they're busy casting long ass mechanics by recentering themselves in the middle of the room.

Which is actually extra annoying when they don't center themselves.

I know I've complained that they took boss positioning away from tanks, but with the current design it's equally annoying when they don't, because you often only have a single GCD of time to move the boss before it casts for another eternity.

Eg. M2S: a lot of autos during Beat 1, then a buster soon after that, and then a lot of autos during Alarm 1 right after that. But in practice this isn’t really that threatening because tanks can handle all the autos before and after the buster by using whatever they want other than whichever ability they’re going to use on the buster.

In M4S 2nd phase there are occasional moments where she isn't casting anything and just autoing the tanks for an extended period, those autos actually hurt. Only problem is that the busters are so far apart that you have plenty of mitigation to use on the autos.

[Arohk]

So basically just old crit autos and actually dangerous autos?

Sign me up

Yan auto attacks hitting for 65k each aren't enough?

[Supersnow845]

Yan auto attacks hitting for 65k each aren't enough?

They are basically the only enemies that do hit enough

Every boss should use yans as a baseline not as the pinnacle we achieve once per expansion

[Carighan]

Every boss should use yans as a baseline not as the pinnacle we achieve once per expansion

In fact, even dungeon bosses should, seeing how like raid bosses they're not autoattacking but casting their stuff most of the time, anyways. At least make the few autoattacks they do actually hurt!

[Arohk]

In fact, even dungeon bosses should, seeing how like raid bosses they're not autoattacking but casting their stuff most of the time, anyways. At least make the few autoattacks they do actually hurt!

but how would the average cure spamming white mage player keep up with so much boss damage

[Supersnow845]

but how would the average cure spamming white mage player keep up with so much boss damage

The answer is simply that they shouldn’t.

We are at the point where multiple aspects of the game are coming apart at the seams simply because the game doesn’t allow players to fail which makes the game utterly boring for everyone that clears the low standard for not being one of the ones that game protects from failing which in turn encourages lethargic gameplay in people who want to play properly

Take a step back, ignoring how conditioned we have all become to instantly answering “square would never let people fail” Is it really healthy for the average playerbase to protect someone who won’t engage beyond their level FOUR kit in level 100 content especially when it’s directly at the expense of players who WANT to use all 100 levels of their kit

There needs to be a basic level of expected competency, it simply isn’t healthy to externalise competency onto every other role so basically every role is self sufficient.

[Valence]

They are basically the only enemies that do hit enough

Every boss should use yans as a baseline not as the pinnacle we achieve once per expansion

And Harrowing Hell as the party wide equivalent