M6s in PF is the most miserable and unfun high end fight in the game

[Kohashi]

No point getting mad at these tankless/healerless clears in hardcore content, when you know for a fact 99.99% of raiders would never run this kind of comp. People who -do- doom about these clears invalidating roles, must have a huge ego to think they can play just as well as the literal W1st winners that did tankless M6S.

Yeah, the fact that people make topics like that in this forum is hilarious as hell. Lucrecia is formed out of very hard-working, well-coordinated individuals who have raided together for a while. Very few qualify for this. It's pretty much a nonfactor and it only shows their skill and not the actual balance state of the game.

Also, I am sure they practiced this for a while before they could clear it. It's not like they did 1 pull 1 clear.

[ServerCollaps]

What's funny is that even M8S has an add phase, but the damage check there is a complete joke by comparison. The fight is definitely faster paced and has more mechanics overall, but none of the groups I joined struggled with any phase nearly as much as they did with the adds in M6S. This is all from Party Finder experience, of course statics might have a completely different perspective on this tier.

i think 2 wolf heads that just die hardly qualifies as "add phase"

[Themarvin]

I vote for lowering the DPS check but more nasty mechanics and enforced ilevel if so, so you can't skip a single mechanic in any of the boss fights ( that means Speed Runs will be a myth )..... and maybe making the fights go from 7-8 minutes to 15-20minutes of concentrated bliss....

[justausername]

over 300 pulls in and I've decided its just not possible for PF. people lie about prog constantly, cant do simple mechanics, and they ccant kill things fast enough which i assume means their dps sucks. seems no matter how many weeks pass or how much gear people get, they just can't do it. GG square enix.

[Derio]

This raid tier would be better if M3 was swapped with M2.

[AllenThyl]

I mean, I have way more experience (and community involvement) then you do, so your post just screams of insecurity, but you do you.

Yes, which is why you are the poster child in this forum of how "experience" is meaningless when it doesn't result in actual understanding. After all, you still don't understand where the problem in the statement of "Nael phase is truly random" is, don't you?
And the talk about insecurity is pretty rich given that you filled this thread several times with how you don't do this tier, that you might do this tier and so on and so forth.

This is why I asked this as a question, because yes, I am not raiding this tier. Forgive me for being curious about it and as you say, "not understanding how encounters work". All I've seen answered everywhere so far seemed to hint at a lot of adjustment to be made depending on players, comp, circumstances, beyond the raidplan acting as a baseline, adjustment which is something for example, as you quote Yukizuri, the guide maker specifically mentions needs to be done. You telling me that this isn't the case, then it would seem you are in disagreement with the majority?

Don't pretend to be modest, you have shown time and again that you don't understand encounter design, irrespective of whether or not you managed to clear it. And yes, the "majority" is wrong on their assessment of this fight as well as their own performance while doing it. The current main strategy used in pf is cleavemaxxing from Hector, which states for example that the 1st ray needs to be cleaved while the mus are nearby. But what many groups are doing, is often the tank not moving the mus close enough so that they actually get cleaved by the attacks on the ray, or dps unloading all their cleave attacks on the mus before the ray is even spawned. It's literally NOT doing what the guide says. Unbeknownst to Lucretia, I have actually been in a duty completion party with them that couldn't make it past adds, because Lucretia kept dying as yan tank. Why? Because the healers didn't bother healing Lucretia for over 15 seconds, whose hp just kept decreasing while their cooldowns ran out, despite the guide saying that healers need to throw every hlea, mitigation and the kitchen at the yan tank during the end. But hey, can't expect people in high end content to actually do their job to facilitate successful completion of the duty, much easier to whine on the forums about "overtuned adds", casting another dosis while the tank runs out of mits.

PF has such a problem with this fight because they literally don't do what the guide says, and instead substitute the instructions for whatever the hell they "feel" is right. And since this community in general thinks very little of introspection or critical self evaluation, they will continue to be not get past that point and blame stuff like class balance ("must have a viper", "the secret is having 2 casters", "MCH is useless"), instead of facing the truth of their own failure to properly play the game. Even now, with all the gear, people are still stuck at the add phase, because people don't do what is necessary to clear, no amount of gear can fix that. It's like not soaking a tower, which then wipes the raid.

[Valence]

Wait a minute, are you actually confusing me with Red Thunder? Why are you bringing up this Nael rng thing with me now? You, sir, have a serious issue if that one is still living rent free in your head.

If me saying I'm not interested into a thing or type of content anymore and telling why is a proof of insecurity, I don't know what to tell you. You were the one starting an epeen comparison (that you will lose which I pointed out), not me? This is what reeks of insecurity. I'd rather avoid that kind of meaningless performance comparison, which unfortunately tends to happen way too often on those forums.

I am actually reading your view on this fight and why you may disagree with other takes. I do not disagree with your take, and would especially not try and pretend that you're doing it right or doing it wrong because I haven't done the fight. Unlike you I know where my limits are. I do respect your feedback from your own experience in the encounter. And yes, I have had feedback from better raiders than you that still do raid (and cleared week one) that do have a slightly different opinion on it then you do, namely that blindly following guides or instruction has its limits on this specific phase.

[Kohashi]

because Lucretia kept dying as yan tank. Why? Because the healers didn't bother healing Lucretia for over 15 seconds, whose hp just kept decreasing while their cooldowns ran out, despite the guide saying that healers need to throw every hlea, mitigation and the kitchen at the yan tank during the end.

That is not true. You cannot kitchen sink the OT/ tank with double yans because after the yans are done/ near the end of wave 4, you get a raidwide and a TB right after. You need to save at least 1 mit for the tanks who will most likely be without any CD.

You do have to babysit the tanks and space out mits in such a manner to cover not only the tanks but also the party. Pure H might have to do some GCD healing, the same way shield has to do some GCD shields.

One reason why AST + sge is so insanely powerful in m6s.

[Amarande]

PF has such a problem with this fight because they literally don't do what the guide says, and instead substitute the instructions for whatever the hell they "feel" is right. And since this community in general thinks very little of introspection or critical self evaluation, they will continue to be not get past that point and blame stuff like class balance ("must have a viper", "the secret is having 2 casters", "MCH is useless"), instead of facing the truth of their own failure to properly play the game. Even now, with all the gear, people are still stuck at the add phase, because people don't do what is necessary to clear, no amount of gear can fix that. It's like not soaking a tower, which then wipes the raid.

I sometimes wonder how much the reliance on PF itself is becoming a problem - in other words, we're reaching that point where it's becoming iffy if challenging content in FFXIV can continue to get more challenging within its constraints without just flat out requiring statics.

Which is its own problem because in most MMOs the solution to this is to simply acknowledge that pugging is not a great idea for the most part (except maybe for Mythic+ in WoW, but more on that in a moment). "Get a guild."

In XIV, though, the norm for years has been that you prove yourself in pugs before you get considered for a serious static, and FCs wield such weakened influence due to many factors like mega-Discords, housing (many would prefer to have a small personal FC for access to things like the workshop and because it is easier to get, ahem, "given" an FC than to get a house lately unless you're on a half-dead DC like Dynamis), and how SE chose to handle inter-server play (WoW eventually implemented near-seamless merges on everything, even guilds are cross realm in War Within, while SE requires active travel, making not only FCs weaker but that house on a half-dead DC a much harder sell), so guild groups aren't such a simple matter either.

But when the content starts becoming complicated enough that you need more coordination than you can reasonably expect of a pickup team, then what? It's no wonder people grasp at straws.

This is an issue throughout most MMOs (exhibit A: Lost Ark, which I love to dunk as "all the problems with grouping in WoW and FFXIV combined in a package with a nice little bow on top!")

The only real clear exception I've seen is Mythic+ and I'm guessing that cheats in several ways (outside of the affixes, no new mechanics, just steady numbers uptuning that is balanced out to a degree by steadier gearing; also the fact that rewards stop increasing long before you get near the actual limit of performance, neither of which is the case in XIV), much as its inspiration the Greater Rifts from Diablo 3 do.

[Absurdity]

I sometimes wonder how much the reliance on PF itself is becoming a problem - in other words, we're reaching that point where it's becoming iffy if challenging content in FFXIV can continue to get more challenging within its constraints without just flat out requiring statics.

Which is its own problem because in most MMOs the solution to this is to simply acknowledge that pugging is not a great idea for the most part (except maybe for Mythic+ in WoW, but more on that in a moment). "Get a guild."

Which isn't even really true for WoW anymore, you can pug normal raids just fine. And while heroic is more of a mixed bag, because difficulty fluctuates wildly between bosses, you can probably pug some there as well. It's only for mythic raiding where you absolutely need a guild or fixed raid team.

XIV however doesn't really have those options. It only has raid finder and something in-between heroic and mythic raids.