M6s in PF is the most miserable and unfun high end fight in the game

[Kandraxx]

Raiding in this game takes neither skill nor brain so there isn't much lost if you quit and do something useful with your life. Some of the best players came to this conclusion long ago. Personally I'm baffled how this garbage still passes through their QA department and how Yoshida is still with the company.

[-Xenia-]

I’m also in the group of starting to not want to play anymore because of m6s. I cleared the last four savage tiers and loved it, mostly in PF the whole time. Now it seems like it’s impossible to get through m6s. Can hardly find a group to begin with. Of the ones I find many don’t fill. Of the ones that fill, they can’t get through adds.

Savage was my favorite activity in this game. They ruined most of the other stuff I like in the game, but at least I had savage. And now they’re ruining that as well.

[AllenThyl]

Raiding in this game takes neither skill nor brain so there isn't much lost if you quit and do something useful with your life. Some of the best players came to this conclusion long ago. Personally I'm baffled how this garbage still passes through their QA department and how Yoshida is still with the company.

You're taking over for the resident forum clown in being the perpetual sourpuss on a forum that requires an active subscription to the game to post here? I mean, it's obvious how YoshiP is still in charge, given that under his leadership he manages to keep eternal whiners subscribed for years.

[Taranok]

I’m also in the group of starting to not want to play anymore because of m6s. I cleared the last four savage tiers and loved it, mostly in PF the whole time. Now it seems like it’s impossible to get through m6s. Can hardly find a group to begin with. Of the ones I find many don’t fill. Of the ones that fill, they can’t get through adds.

Savage was my favorite activity in this game. They ruined most of the other stuff I like in the game, but at least I had savage. And now they’re ruining that as well.

My issue with savage is 4-fold, personally. 1, they're designing a game that is killing my preferred, favorite playstyle (core caster gameplay of memorizing bosses, minimizing movement, and finding pixels to hide in.) 2, they're doing it in a way that breaks their netcode (M5S is substantially harder with even 50 ping.) 3, they're massively ratcheting up multitasking and obscure boss mechanics. 4, they're killing job design to do it.

DT just happens to be the straw that's breaking the camel's back, but all of this started mid-ShB, and EW was when I knew something was deeply wrong.

The issue fundamentally comes down to the devs barking up the wrong tree in designing the game, and forgetting the limitations of their game and what made their best expansion the best expansion. By the way, it's stormblood. All of ShB's success is because of stormblood fixing HW's godawful mistakes.

For netcode itself, the devs learned this lesson in titan ex with weight of the land. How the heck can netcode issues sneak into the game still?

[KageTokage]

For netcode itself, the devs learned this lesson in titan ex with weight of the land. How the heck can netcode issues sneak into the game still?

I am kind of curious how many mechanics have violated their claim that no telegraphed mechanics would give less time to react then weight of the land did at this point.

[Valence]

I’ve spent some time in PF with M6S (joined a static eventually lol) but it seems like the noticeable difference between a party that can do adds and a party that can’t is based on whether they can talk about wipes and adapt as needed. For example if someone says “it’s maybe be because of me that the jabberwock didn’t die fast enough, I didn’t use enough single target attacks that time.”

But this type of coordination and adjustment is not something players usually ever have to do in PF. In some raids there may be the rare discussion about raidwide mitigation or tankbusters, but most of of the time a party just agrees on a strategy at the start and then (as long as they’re good at the raid) clears it with no further communication needed.

Part of me wonders of the reason that mechanics are often designed the way they are these days (ie. being mainly about standing in the right spots), is to reduce the chance of needing actual party coordination other that “can you follow the agreed-upon strategy.”

M6S is literally the anti raidplan fight from what I've seen. It goes against everything that the current raiding community does which is memorizing plans and executing a set of instructions to the letter. It requires people to think by themselves and talk with their party.

Is this a decent summary of it?

[Yoshihara]

Haha they say M6S.

I've seen streamers hard stuck far more often on M7S in PF, with many just agonizing over it in reclears if not done on reset day.

[Volgia]

M6S is literally the anti raidplan fight from what I've seen. It goes against everything that the current raiding community does which is memorizing plans and executing a set of instructions to the letter. It requires people to think by themselves and talk with their party.

Is this a decent summary of it?

To be honest I would like more fights that test your knowledge of a job and game sense like M6S. People complain about it being a wall on PF but really the wall is just the lack of skill of the players. I'm not an amazing raider by any means, I got through adds phase as a healer, caster and melee, and finally cleared.

Raiders were asking for stuff like this for years, now we got it, and a bunch of people conditioned by ShB and EW want them to nerf it when there's no need. Next week this part of the fight is gonna be so easy the challenge will be very diminished.

[Kohashi]

I’m also in the group of starting to not want to play anymore because of m6s. I cleared the last four savage tiers and loved it, mostly in PF the whole time. Now it seems like it’s impossible to get through m6s. Can hardly find a group to begin with. Of the ones I find many don’t fill. Of the ones that fill, they can’t get through adds.

Savage was my favorite activity in this game. They ruined most of the other stuff I like in the game, but at least I had savage. And now they’re ruining that as well.

Oh please.. as if Snek memes weren't a thing in p8s and most PF's that were "phase 2" were actually a snek prog in disguise. Give me a break..

[Taranok]

I am kind of curious how many mechanics have violated their claim that no telegraphed mechanics would give less time to react then weight of the land did at this point.

It depends on how they test it. A really old claim is that they test the game at 250ms ping, but a fake 250ms ping where you just programatically delay a signal before sending it to a computer in the same room as the server is very, very different than a real world 250ms ping which can wildly fluctuate.

Likewise, weight of the land isn't the best mechanic, but it's a lot easier to react to than most mechanics in m5s and m6s I've seen. Take that for what you will, it's just my own opinion and observations.

It's also hard to even want to hold the devs to a standard this old when the game has changed. Weight of the Land even as an individually fast mechanic comes relatively slow, somewhere in the 2.5-4s timing between individual weights. Even funky floor can't say that, because even if they are identical timing, the mechanics happen for a solid 30 seconds of continuous movement, while weight of the lands is 2 dodges and done, meaning the mechanic overall is substantially easier and if the player runs into problems, it's all of 5 seconds of total time and the mechanic is done.

Then there's the relative distance moved (WotL is higher individually, funky floor is vastly higher overall) and even if it lives up to the standard, it's a marked increase in bad fight design because WotL breaking the netcode shouldn't be the bare minimum. There should be a very, very healthy buffer above that.

But you can't have a healthy buffer in 1/2/4/8 mechanics design where the only difficulty adjustments you can possibly do are pace, punishment, and raw distance required to solve. It eventually just gets extremely easy and players, rightly and wrongly, demand harder content because 1/2/4/8 is predictable and extremely boring when there's literally only 1 possible solution. Why wrongly? Because most players can't recognize that the real problem is how encounters are being designed. Driving the game harder into the corner of bad mechanics design cannot possibly fix the problem without alienating large swaths of the playerbase as it inevitably turns the game into not only something it isn't, but something it never can reliably be.