Summoner needs a fix or a new reason to play it.

[Supersnow845]

True but making MCH a better buff feeder is only one of the possible ways to fix it, it’s not the only way. Of the 4 selfish jobs only really SAM is a good buff feeder (compared to truly burst heavy jobs like PCT or NIN) yet MCH is the only one that suffers for its position in the meta despite 3 out of 4 being relatively poor buff feeders. Because VPR and BLM are given enough damage to compensate for their poor buff feeding capabilities.

You could also fix it with the simple “every skill gets 100 potency” change (not actual numbers) where its profile doesn’t change but it simply does more damage. You are correct that if selfish DPS are ahead in rDPS they are actually deceptively stronger than they actually are (doubly so if they are ahead in cDPS) but right now MCH just suffers from many problems at the same time. If your aim is improvement of buff feeding your suggestions are all good

But of course this still kinda goes way beyond my original point that basically just amounts to “using aDPS to prop MCH up against buffing classes is useless info. If you want an Omni job comparison of total contribution to the raid rDPS is your best bet”

[Valence]

As long as your job (MCH) will be part of a second rate group of DPS, trying to make it play better into raid buffs by giving it back its old profile with 40% of its damage poured into a 10s burst for example, while good, will never get over the fact that it will still remain a subpar DPS class like all rphys jobs are in terms of output. Trying to adjust the profile is nice, but it's still a losing strategy if the job is still taxed like it is right now. You will never make a selfish job shine under raid buffs if you kneecap its general output at the same time with stupid ranged taxes.

It will need both variables to be addressed, and its mathematical overall output probably moreso than the profile.

[HikariKurosawa]

I mean, you said it Hikari. Word your posts better if you want people not to quote you on what you say.

Never took issue with being quoted on what I said. The issue is the reading comprehension. MCH does very good damage on its own in solo content relative to most jobs, and it is absolutely not a selfish dps. People want to act like raidwide mitigation is "needless", but the reality is that MCH is able to fix bad situations with its mitigation and dps profile being less dependent on raid buffs. It's a good job for fixing bad pulls, which is good and suitable for the fantasy of MCH.

I think a big problem is people care too much about fflogs and damage meters. This game really does need an anti-cheat because the community is extremely negative as a result of obsessing over stuff that really doesn't matter. If you are in a group that is playing the content well, none of this will ever impact your ability to clear content cleanly. If you need a job to be on top of damage meters to enjoy it, maybe you should uninstall the game and spare the people who actually care about what matters your presence.

[Carighan]

I think a big problem is people care too much about fflogs and damage meters. This game really does need an anti-cheat because the community is extremely negative as a result of obsessing over stuff that really doesn't matter. If you are in a group that is playing the content well, none of this will ever impact your ability to clear content cleanly. If you need a job to be on top of damage meters to enjoy it, maybe you should uninstall the game and spare the people who actually care about what matters your presence.

Oh definitely, but it's also a hard issue to fix.

In games that tried to, players will bend insanely around corners to still try get it done. I've seen everything including OCR-aquisition of the damage numbers above an enemy's head in games that had no easily accessible way of getting the damage otherwise. Wanting to optimize and hyper-optimize is in the nature of players of MMORPGs after they've played for a while.

At the same time, the effect is vastly blown out of proportion, not helped by charts such as the statistics quoted before where most players see this giant gap between classes, missing that they're actually all damn close together, the X-axis just doesn't start at 0.

[HikariKurosawa]

Oh definitely, but it's also a hard issue to fix.

In games that tried to, players will bend insanely around corners to still try get it done. I've seen everything including OCR-aquisition of the damage numbers above an enemy's head in games that had no easily accessible way of getting the damage otherwise. Wanting to optimize and hyper-optimize is in the nature of players of MMORPGs after they've played for a while.

At the same time, the effect is vastly blown out of proportion, not helped by charts such as the statistics quoted before where most players see this giant gap between classes, missing that they're actually all damn close together, the X-axis just doesn't start at 0.

Yup. It's pretty wild how monkey-brained people can be, when it's just a game to have fun with. You can clear all content with nearly any comp. What makes the game fun is playing what you want to play, not getting a high score that impresses nobody but the ego.

It's too bad, but it's the same thing in almost every area of life. The majority of people are of a very low mind.

[Valence]

MCH does very good damage on its own in solo content relative to most jobs, and it is absolutely not a selfish dps. People want to act like raidwide mitigation is "needless", but the reality is that MCH is able to fix bad situations with its mitigation and dps profile being less dependent on raid buffs. It's a good job for fixing bad pulls, which is good and suitable for the fantasy of MCH.

Firstly I'm confused why solo content is mentioned and being discussed. Any job can clear solo content without breaking a sweat?

Second, in what world does MCH fix bad situations with its mitigation? What kind of content actually makes this a thing? I have played rphys across all varieties of content, from dungeons to ultimates, and never have I felt that the added rphys party support tools were actually necessary or would have saved a run (comparatively to any other role). Didn't stop me from using them because it's better than nothing, but then what?
Back in HW and SB? Yes. There was a lot less of those party tools which made them immediately more relevant instead of being drowned in a sea of mitigation (when there is only one healer party wide going for a specific raid wide, missing something like dismantle can change a lot of things, when there is already 5 mitigators up and running, then missing dismantle will not be felt a lot). On top of this mechanical clearance in most encounters was a lot less binary, with a lot less body checks and was less about "step in the wrong spot and wipe the raid": we definitely had this in savage+, but less so (especially in extremes for example) and this incidentally added a lot more weight behind party wide mitigation tools since it was a bit less about mechanics that didn't actually care much about this (DDR/oneshot), AND party resource management was a real deal and saving resources on MP, healing, etc, also had more weight.
We may also want to remember all that period of limbo during ShB up to mid EW where BRD and MCH only had ONE single party wide mitigation (Troubadour/Tactician), until SE eventually noticed that in comparison to DNC that had 3, it was maybe not the greatest look for them and turned Minne party wide and reintroduced Dismantle to MCH.

Let's not pretend that those tools do anything of big value here, unlike a raise for example. Even a MNK or RPR have mitigation tools that come close already. SMN probably heals ten times better than DNC, etc.

[HikariKurosawa]

Firstly I'm confused why solo content is mentioned and being discussed. Any job can clear solo content without breaking a sweat?

Second, in what world does MCH fix bad situations with its mitigation? What kind of content actually makes this a thing? I have played rphys across all varieties of content, from dungeons to ultimates, and never have I felt that the added rphys party support tools were actually necessary or would have saved a run (comparatively to any other role). Didn't stop me from using them because it's better than nothing, but then what?
Back in HW and SB? Yes. There was a lot less of those party tools which made them immediately more relevant instead of being drowned in a sea of mitigation (when there is only one healer party wide going for a specific raid wide, missing something like dismantle can change a lot of things, when there is already 5 mitigators up and running, then missing dismantle will not be felt a lot). On top of this mechanical clearance in most encounters was a lot less binary, with a lot less body checks and was less about "step in the wrong spot and wipe the raid": we definitely had this in savage+, but less so (especially in extremes for example) and this incidentally added a lot more weight behind party wide mitigation tools since it was a bit less about mechanics that didn't actually care much about this (DDR/oneshot), AND party resource management was a real deal and saving resources on MP, healing, etc, also had more weight.
We may also want to remember all that period of limbo during ShB up to mid EW where BRD and MCH only had ONE single party wide mitigation (Troubadour/Tactician), until SE eventually noticed that in comparison to DNC that had 3, it was maybe not the greatest look for them and turned Minne party wide and reintroduced Dismantle to MCH.

Let's not pretend that those tools do anything of big value here, unlike a raise for example. Even a MNK or RPR have mitigation tools that come close already. SMN probably heals ten times better than DNC, etc.

Why are you confused? The person I was replying to mentioned that MCH felt bad in solo content, I explained why that's inaccurate.

In what world does MCH fix bad situations with its mitigation? The situations where you don't have 5 layers of mitigation because of deaths. You probably just jump into the wall when it gets that bad though so it's understandable if it's something you can't grasp.

We're not really living in a world where success in an encounter is binary. There are always situations where mitigation can salvage the pull. Again, it's the problem with the playerbase that is overly eager to jump into the wall. Overly concerned with parsing so they give up on "bad pulls" because they don't want to see a bad parse on their fflogs. Can't parse grey if you don't clear the boss after all.

Every single criticism with every job just boils down to this: The community cares way too much about parsing and is ruining their own engagement with the game for something that makes them look like losers to most people. Wow you parsed 99% on a boss in an mmo. That's awesome. Really cool buddy! Goes to show that giving up on a bad pull over and over and over really makes you look good in the end. Giving up on your favorite job fantasy, at least you get to look "cool" on the fflogs LOL. What a joke. Your parents should be ashamed.

[Sunako]

this thread sound more like MCH thread than SMN

[HikariKurosawa]

this thread sound more like MCH thread than SMN

It's all the same criticisms being addressed. Hyper-fixation on parsing ruining player engagement.

Brings me back to what I said in my first reply to this thread "It's difficult dealing with FOTM players as a dev because if a job like SMN is too viable then everyone plays it for easy performance and they start to complain about the game being too easy or boring."

Which is why the parsers will never be happy. It's too bad I'm not in control of the game because I'd have an anticheat installed really fast and I would make sure to detect and ban anyone who is parsing. This is why kernal level anti-cheat is important, because it needs to be able to access the programs being run that aren't directly engaging with the game files. People claim it's about linux support or privacy concerns, but the reality is they just don't want effective anti-cheat because they are constantly cheating.

[Supersnow845]

Well maybe if SMN wasn’t reworked to be a boring overly simplistic mess that a 2 year old could play then the devs wouldn’t struggle to balance it so much

Every change the devs make to the jobs since the toilet paper lily fiasco is basically to attract FOTM players to temporarily boost numbers so they can declare it a success before they abandon it

5.0 MCH was like that, 5.0 healers were as well, same as 6.0 SMN, 7.0 AST, 7.2 BLM and every other class I’m missing

And as soon as the class is abandoned then all the problems crop up. How do you balance a class that’s so easy that if it did any respectable damage it would dominate its archetype? How do you balance a selfish class in a role not allowed to do decent damage? How do you design classes that HAVE to contribute to damage but aren’t built like they should be contributing to damage?

None of these questions get answered, they just get left on the trash heap