Summoner needs a fix or a new reason to play it.

[HikariKurosawa]

There is no gotcha, pointing to aDPS or nDPS on a selfish DPS as a sort of “see it’s not that bad if you just ignore the raid buffs the rDPS jobs are built around then MCH kinda does decent damage”

Fact is a selfish DPS needs to do comparable n/aDPS to a buffers rDPS, which MCH does not do

1) the context is referring to how mch feels in solo content. 2) mch is not a "selfish" dps. it has defensive raid buff and dismantle on top of that. "selfish" dps have no utility beyond damage.

[Supersnow845]

1) the context is referring to how mch feels in solo content. 2) mch is not a "selfish" dps. it has defensive raid buff and dismantle on top of that. "selfish" dps have no utility beyond damage.

Well then we have no selfish DPS at all by that definition

All 4 selfish DPS have a defensive buff. MCH has a second defensive, SAM has a really powerful self mitigation and VPR has UF as ranged utility. Only BLM has nothing besides its role based defensive buff

Selfish DPS simply means they don’t have a raid buff

[HikariKurosawa]

Well then we have no selfish DPS at all by that definition

All 4 selfish DPS have a defensive buff. MCH has a second defensive, SAM has a really powerful self mitigation and VPR has UF as ranged utility. Only BLM has nothing besides its role based defensive buff

Selfish DPS simply means they don’t have a raid buff

self-mitigation... selfish... self.... selfish....

dismantle.... raidwide mitigation through target debuff.... tactician... raidwide mitigation through raid buff...

BLM... manaward.... granted through class quest to BLM only... self-mitigation.... selfish dps....

It's pretty simple really. The selfish dps in this game are SAM, BLM, and VPR. All they contribute to raids is personal damage. That's what makes them selfish. No utility other than damage. No party mitigation, no party buffs, just damage. MCH has party mitigation, therefore it is not a selfish dps.

[Supersnow845]

self-mitigation... selfish... self.... selfish....

dismantle.... raidwide mitigation through target debuff.... tactician... raidwide mitigation through raid buff...

BLM... manaward.... granted through class quest to BLM only... self-mitigation.... selfish dps....

It's pretty simple really. The selfish dps in this game are SAM, BLM, and VPR. All they contribute to raids is personal damage. That's what makes them selfish. No utility other than damage. No party mitigation, no party buffs, just damage. MCH has party mitigation, therefore it is not a selfish dps.

SAM/VPR- feint
BLM- addle

[Valence]

"MCH can't deal more damage because it has more party mitigation than other damage deals"

Doesn't matter if said mitigation is useless.
Doesn't matter that the two other ranged physical that have the same over mitigation problem also offer more total damage contribution than MCH anyway.

[HikariKurosawa]

SAM/VPR- feint
BLM- addle

[Carighan]

I mean, you said it Hikari. Word your posts better if you want people not to quote you on what you say.

[Aco505]

^n and aDPS are useless metrics for cross class comparison of anything besides the tanks in 8 man content whatever your opinion of MCH is

All metrics are important and they must all be used for comparisons:

aDPS tells you how much a job does in buffs.

rDPS tells you how much others do in your buffs.

nDPS tells you how much a job does when ignoring buffs, which can be useful when gauging dummy performance or to calculate exactly how much rDPS/aDPS you gain.

Finally, cDPS tells you how much a job does in buffs and how well others do in yours.


The main issue of metrics is that they're all comp dependent, with aDPS and particularly cDPS being quite so. cDPS is mostly useful to see overall balance and shouldn't really be used to gauge individual performance unless comparing exact same group compositions.

rDPS is the lesser evil but it's by no means perfect, since if you just went by rDPS, "selfish" jobs would have to play in unintended ways: you can just send stuff on CD without saving for buffs and your rDPS won't change unless it's a pot window. That's why aDPS is important to them, because it says how well they exploit buffs.

Additionally, there are other factors such as kill time, party size or content type that can easily skew the numbers in one way or another and give the wrong impression. We all know MCH is overall weak compared to other DPS but the job still has important strengths in a fight such as M6S. Being a gauge job with higher personal damage means that they're well suited to dispatch the single target threats there, something the other range have more trouble with, while still retaining the ability to produce some cleave damage. This won't be reflected in the metrics as easily as a DNC padding with their multiple cleaves.

Fights ending with 2-minute kill times will favor jobs like NIN whereas a VPR will see more benefit when a fight ends right after they spent all their resources. Therefore, encounters with variable kill times can easily make VPR equal or even superior to NIN. We could see this in the previous tier with how VPR was high initially and then went down as NIN climbed up.


I'd like to end this post with a reminder:

You're trying to argue with someone that thinks that you need plugins to hit all your positionals when doing mechanics; you're cheating if you can do both properly.

Someone that now claims to just be giving his opinion but has shut others' opinions by calling them "noob" or "weak". In fact, the latter was removed from the specific comment because I guess he thought it was too much.

They have also said that if a combo breaks, you should continue with the uncomboed actions:

Combos do stay indefinitely now. If you hit the wrong button, you can still continue the combo without getting the potency increase. It doesn't change your rotation going forward from the mistake. Do you even play melee? Or when you mess up a combo, do you really start it over from the beginning instead of just continuing? Even the most basic guides will tell you to just continue the rotation, it's a dps loss to miss combo, but it's an even further dps loss to try to correct it.

And replied that it's "what YouTube guides say" when confronted about it.

They have no intention whatsoever to engage in discussion of any kind or to learn anything at all.

My advice: don't waste your time.

[Supersnow845]

You aren’t wrong but that’s way more detail than I intended

I mostly just meant that if you are comparing on average across jobs for net job balance where the roles have buffers and selfish DPS (so any role besides tanks) a/nDPS is not what you are going to look at. They have their uses and rDPS breaks down at the individual level but my point was simply trying to sell MCH as not that bad because it has higher n/aDPS than DNC/BRD/SMN/RDM is rather disingenuous

I’m not trying to say a/nDPS is actually a useless metric

[Aco505]

I mostly just meant that if you are comparing on average across jobs for net job balance where the roles have buffers and selfish DPS (so any role besides tanks) a/nDPS is not what you are going to look at. They have their uses and rDPS breaks down at the individual level but my point was simply trying to sell MCH as not that bad because it has higher n/aDPS than DNC/BRD/SMN/RDM is rather disingenuous

But that's the point, aDPS is useful and very important to gauge job performance, especially for non-buffers. This is why you, me and others have said before that "selfish" jobs can't be ahead rDPS-wise compared to buffers, because otherwise the former would be even stronger than they already are.

One of the reasons why MCH struggles is precisely because it's bad at buff feeding. If the job dealt like 500-1k more DPS by feeding well in buffs, it'd be a slightly different story. For starters, why can't Wildfire crit? Why can't queen scale based on the amount of battery used, up to 100? Changes like these could help MCH's aDPS in the current meta, unless the developers decide to give it a raid buff.

If we compare the difference between nDPS and aDPS for BLM, VPR, SAM and MCH, we'll quickly realize where the problem lies (again, under the current damage profile meta of 2-minute buffs).

There's plenty of posts lately using the metrics provided by FFlogs without truly understanding their purpose (not saying you're one of those), which in turn causes a lot of misinformation.