I don't think SE consider D4 RDM in the mechanics in this patch

[Wayfinder3]

Some mechanics designs in this patch are comfortable for rdm who are in fake melee, but D4 rdm is the bad in somehow. For example, playing M7S in D4 rdm is not able to melee combo in phase 3 tether, the only thing I can do is AOE combo. The burst cannot delay, because of tether stuff. Many people decide to play blm/pct, because of bad experience in D4 rdm.

It's definitely super weird how the melee combo just doesn't work with some of the mechanics expected strategies, Caster Baiting Manta while bursting down the first pack of Adds before first Jabberwock doesn't feel the greatest on RDM because at best you can single target hit the manta and dump the AoE finishers on the adds to help BUT... If the adds don't die, you have to skip out on Moulinet again which will lower your overall AoE damage and thus cause the face to take longer. It's super weird and, RDM likely wasn't considered when the Strat was made or the mechanic was designed.

Another case is when the party is split in lava phase of m2s, Don't expect to melee combo at all until that entire phase is done, this going to make faster rdm kills a pain when rdms want to dump resources before the boss dies. it's less of an issue for Prog when gear is low but will become obnoxious as things start to die faster

Ride the Waves in p1 has 2 strats both of which force your rdm away from the boss especially if you're trying to give the melee uptime for the mechanic

The penultimate burst phase in brute abominator also gets tricky because you have to be at the wall and you can only hit the spawning add for a little while before the tank pulls it away to do the quarry swamp portion of that mechanic which of course means you're not getting 2 Melee combos in the burst window on that front.

I hate to say it but i think Red Mage needs a second Melee combo thats ranged based so that this stops being an issue, Like the Redoublement combo can get buffed if you do this ranged combo prior and the idea is to alternate between the 2 combos. At least with this, Red mage will always have the ability to do it's core loop without completely stalling it's rotation and shifting it out of burst. think of it as a "Storm's path" combo and Storm's Eye combo that the job swaps between for max potency

[Carighan]

All of this sounds pretty positive?

As in, you can't just blindly press your melee combo. That's good. Now let's apply this design to the other 20+ jobs, because hell I'm tired of just doing everything as the button lights up...

I hate to say it but i think Red Mage needs a second Melee combo thats ranged based so that this stops being an issue

I was joking. This was satire. It was meant to mock the absolutely silly changes done to other jobs, such as removing the pets of Summoners and Scholars, making Black Mage playable instead of the base class you play before getting your Picto job stone, turning Bard into whatever this archer with a harp is meant to be instead of a Bard, etc.

You taking it serious makes it partially better satire, granted. But it's also worrying...

[Wayfinder3]

listen, i don't care about the official forum's hard on for complexity and all that non-sense. I'm just here to play the game and these are issues because the solution to these things often require a RDM to compete with a melee for the 4th slot which is not reasonable due it's low damage compared to even the weakest melee and the fact that the consequences forces red mages most potent abilities to be misaligned with the rest of the classes. It sucks, it's the type of thing an already weaker job doesn't need. Having an alternative ranged combo that the class can be designed around abusing can be a fantastic way to resolve these issues and give rdm a more dynamic combo than just do the same melee combo 8 times before the boss dies.

[AmiableApkallu]

All of this sounds pretty positive?

As in, you can't just blindly press your melee combo. That's good. Now let's apply this design to the other 20+ jobs, because hell I'm tired of just doing everything as the button lights up...

So long as fights proceed on strict timelines, it doesn't matter how jobs are designed. For any given encounter, you'll still be pushing your buttons in the same order every time. The fact that one encounter might need one order, and another encounter needs another order, doesn't change much.

[Carighan]

So long as fights proceed on strict timelines, it doesn't matter how jobs are designed. For any given encounter, you'll still be pushing your buttons in the same order every time. The fact that one encounter might need one order, and another encounter needs another order, doesn't change much.

You're right insofar that the existing random elements of Red Mage ought to have a bigger impact, precluding knowing that you'll generate enough energy to run the odd combo and the double combo every time. That might happen. Or not. But with a by-now 40% proc chance IIRC, that just evens out too much. An easy fix here would be to reduce the chance to 15% or 20% to get a proc, but increase the energy obtained from a proc by 100%-125% to compensate. Same energy gain over time, but it might be utterly skewed.

And again, this focus entirely on static rotations in job design is the problem. It needs to go. It precludes designing interesting gameplay in the first place.

[mallleable]

RDM could get something that's like a reverse combo where you start with three instant ranged spells, and finish with a melee combo.

[Wayfinder3]

You're right insofar that the existing random elements of Red Mage ought to have a bigger impact, precluding knowing that you'll generate enough energy to run the odd combo and the double combo every time. That might happen. Or not. But with a by-now 40% proc chance IIRC, that just evens out too much. An easy fix here would be to reduce the chance to 15% or 20% to get a proc, but increase the energy obtained from a proc by 100%-125% to compensate. Same energy gain over time, but it might be utterly skewed.

And again, this focus entirely on static rotations in job design is the problem. It needs to go. It precludes designing interesting gameplay in the first place.

You’re playing the wrong the game, it’s not going to change and the game has always been this way, there was always a mathematical superior sequence of skills that lead to more damage, that’s not going to change this late in the games life.

[AmiableApkallu]

And again, this focus entirely on static rotations in job design is the problem. It needs to go. It precludes designing interesting gameplay in the first place.

This is backwards. Static encounters lead to static rotations. Dynamic encounters lead to dynamic use of skills. Throwing (more) RNG into every job's kit is hardly a solution, nor is it even necessary.

Look at PvP. There is certainly an optimal, static rotation if all you're doing is thwacking a striking dummy in Wolves' Den. But step into an arena, with the randomness and variability that is other players, and that static rotation is dead in the water. Same kit, but different encounter designs.

On the other hand, we have PvE, where SE has all but said that they wanted to design a certain kind of encounter this patch, so as a consequence, they changed BLM to better fit that design. SE's problem starts with the fact that they're fixated on a particular, singular style of encounter design.

[Carighan]

I'm just here to play the game and these are issues because the solution to these things often require a RDM to compete with a melee for the 4th slot

Source? You state it like this is obviously a big problem, so come on, is it?

which is not reasonable due it's low damage compared to even the weakest melee and the fact that the consequences forces red mages most potent abilities to be misaligned with the rest of the classes. It sucks, it's the type of thing an already weaker job doesn't need. Having an alternative ranged combo that the class can be designed around abusing can be a fantastic way to resolve these issues and give rdm a more dynamic combo than just do the same melee combo 8 times before the boss dies.

At that point, why even have a melee combo though. Since they equalized the potency between the flip and the melee, have you seen how often RDMs use the flip in actual content? Your supposed combo would do the same thing. There's no point keeping extra button bloat for a melee combo around, as you'd never want to utilize it. Or it's stronger, at which point you'll be right here complaining that you're being "forced" to use your weaker ranged combo or "forced" to misalign your actual melee combo. /shrug

I don't see a solution proposal, I see someone wanting to add complexity to try solve a problem with fight complexity by shifting it into the job they're playing. If your goal were to actually reduce complexity or keep it equal while improving red mage potential, you'd simply shift damage from the combo into the filler, including overhead for the burst potential reduced. Tuhdaaah, same damage in uptime fights, improved damage in disengagement fights. Increased damage in fights with breaks like Ultimates, too!

Too easy a solution? Not enough button bloat? Not complex enough for your hard on for complexity?

[Carighan]

This is backwards. Static encounters lead to static rotations. Dynamic encounters lead to dynamic use of skills. Throwing (more) RNG into every job's kit is hardly a solution, nor is it even necessary.

No, not really. Although we might be talking about different things. The type of class design is based on standing in front of a target dummy. Whether you can actually pull this "ideal" gameplay off or not in front of a specific boss is a separate issue. Note how people don't do a non-static rotation in fights that include strong randomization like Seat of Sacrifice EX.

A non-static-rotation means your job is principally based on procs, resource starvation, resource overflow or non-reliably effects leading to dynamic branch choice. This are then, just like a static rotation, further impacted by the fight design. I think we were just talking about different things. And I'd be on board for less static fights, I loved SoSEX, one of the best fights ever made. But it's an independent thing from what I want, which is classes not based on the static rotation archetype. That ought to be reserved to max 1 class per role, to contrast against all the non-static classes.