real problem with new SMN design, not difficulty it is actually WORSE class fantasy

[Milea]

For years people complained that summoner was not a real summoner. Then in EndWalker they showed off the new big summons of Ifrit, Titan, Garuda. People said now it will be like a real summoner and not with egis (which I miss btw).

Right now much of the complaints is that summoner is too easy but I am not sure that is really the heart of the complaint.

The thing is SUMMONING is too easy. What do I mean by that? Press button, summon appears. Go to next one. Press button summon appears go to next one.

What is a summoner in Final Fantasy? It is a fantasy of summoning these godlike entities that drastically or should drastically change the tide of a battle. Other FF deal with this in various ways. MANA cost is one for the older FF. Replacing your party happens in FFX. FF7 RE you have to be in a pinch a timer appears and you have limited to time call it out. FF8 takes time to call them out and they can get killed by attacks while you are summoning it.

In FFXIV it used to be something you built up. You would have to use aetherflow. You would need to be deep into your rotation. Bahamut felt like a reward when it came out. Infact, as with all things rewarding, if you messed up you lost it. If you died all that work building up to Bahamut...was lost. But when you didn't mess up, you felt good about it.

Now? Presss button. Done.
Instant popout.

Not to mention what are these summons other than Bahamut? Garuda exists to be shadowflare, a much better skill that got removed with the dot purge.
Ifrit exists to allow a gap closer except we don't get to use it when we want and usually just hit it off cooldown making it almost pointless other than having to be careful when we use it.
Titan is just ruin spam that looks different.

People used to complain about times when all you had was ruin spam....but that is what summoner is now, just with a different coat of paint.

And I still play and main summoner, I just wish feedback reaches their ears so 8.0 has GOOD changes.
Truthfully, I liked the pre-endwalker summoners way better. Stormblood probably was peak, Shadowbringers was pretty good.
I was hyped when Endwalker came but this really falls flat.

[Rithy255]

I haven't played many other ff games.

To me before ff14 I felt like a "summoner" would summon something to fight alongside them, with new summoner where people say "feels like your actually summoning things" I feel disconnect because I really don't feel like I'm summoning anything I press a button big summon on screen then goes off after like one attack, Really doesn't feel like a summoner to me... even dark knight feels like it's "summoning more then a summoner" as you summon the shadows to fight with you and it lasts more then 4 seconds.

Though to me theirs serval issues with summoners design, gameplay being the core issue if it's boring I usually don't play a job no matter how appealing it's "fantasy" is, I dislike how little it casts for a magic job but I also dislike how little i have to even think about rotation, nothing about the job appeals to me in its current form.

[AmiableApkallu]

with new summoner where people say "feels like your actually summoning things" I feel disconnect because I really don't feel like I'm summoning anything I press a button big summon on screen then goes off after like one attack

Yet, that's exactly how "summoning" worked in FFIV and FFVI, so it's not without precedent in the franchise.

The problem is that for that model to work in FFXIV, you probably need 10+ summons with varying characteristics and costs. "Push button to deal damage with a different color" doesn't quite carry the same weight.

[Rithy255]

Yet, that's exactly how "summoning" worked in FFIV and FFVI, so it's not without precedent in the franchise.

The problem is that for that model to work in FFXIV, you probably need 10+ summons with varying characteristics and costs. "Push button to deal damage with a different color" doesn't quite carry the same weight.

I much prefer summons actually lasting personally It doesn't need to be a full on pet job (i don't mind that) but surely theirs a interesting design that isn't just "titan appears on screen and goes away"

[Azurarok]

Also when visibility on the field matters as much as it does in this game it made sense for them to typically be as small as the egis and not too flashy too often, something the gem summons are pretty darn terrible at.

[Supersnow845]

Yet, that's exactly how "summoning" worked in FFIV and FFVI, so it's not without precedent in the franchise.

The problem is that for that model to work in FFXIV, you probably need 10+ summons with varying characteristics and costs. "Push button to deal damage with a different color" doesn't quite carry the same weight.

Though old SMN functions similar to 10, 11 and 12. A near permanent summon that stayed on the field and offered you advantage (outside of it replacing your party)

Who’s “SMN” is correct

[Rithy255]

Though old SMN functions similar to 10, 11 and 12. A near permanent summon that stayed on the field and offered you advantage (outside of it replacing your party)

Who’s “SMN” is correct

To me a summoner like that is way more fitting thematically, instead of just summoning something to appear for 2 seconds and do a attack then go.

[Jeeqbit]

To me the current version feels like an actual Summoner from the older FF games that I played.

It just could use more Summoner variety or at least the ability to give them new appearances such as Ramuh, Shiva and Leviathan.

[MrJPtheAssassin]

SMN was my main since I started in SB and that is where I fell in love with the job. I have always liked summoning in FF games. Yuna was my favorite FF character when growing up! That said, I never understood ppl who said that ff14 old smn didn't feel like a real FF smn. To me, FF14 smn was its own thing, but was a smn no matter what. It felt good working up to baha and getting him, it felt so rewarding to do so and it felt amazing to see him ark moan. Now tho...you don't have to work at all to get your summons and none of them feel impactful, they more or less just buttons you press off cooldown now and there's nothing special. I get the same feel from pressing one of these summon buttons as I do pressing another jobs filler buttons, nothing. I get it, old smn wasn't about summoning all the time, but that's what made summons feel special and earned. Now when you summon Titan or Gardura, it feels like nothing because you see it so many times throughout fights.

Also to the comment above me, the LAST thing summon needs is the ability to "glam" the summons into other FF summons. That would add nothing to the job what so ever and just continue the theme of new smn being just a flashy light show that plays itself. I want the job to feel rewarding again, and I want the summons to feel like they make an impact on the fight and not just some filler spells you press and don't earn. As OP said, SB smn was peak IMO and ShB smn was great as well. The devs killed smn for most of its playbase in EW with its souless rework in hopes to get more players to play it. Yeah, it worked, but at the cost of the soul and core of the job.

[Carighan]

Yeah like, the class fantasy is the one thing it truly truly nails. It feels like an actual summoner.

It could be better, of course. Instead of casting spells ourselves we give "commands" (mechanically nothing changes, but Ifrit etc do the attacks, visually). And mechanically there's a lot to improve in general, not in amount of buttons (one of the few things Summoner gets right mechanically is that it eshews the entirely braindead button bloat of most DPS jobs). But it needs variety, randomization in particular, 6-10 minor summons and you get a random set, and the next major summon is random, too! And then differentiate them more.