Ninja's aoe (and maybe mch) being pitifully weak for M6S

[Inanegrain]

I understand that it is possible to clear this fight as a ninja on party finder.

However, I'd think some changes are needed for ninja's aoe capabilities that I've found lacking in sustained aoe fights.

Ninja, for dungeons at least, is strong just for their burst and their ability to recharge mudras immediately between packs, however, if it takes a while to pacify a pack, it struggles as not only are the normal aoe combos incredibly weak, their ninki buildup for a frog is barely a gain over bhavacakra for 3 targets, it is still a gain, but it is small.

We have no fall off damage on our mudras, but that comes at a cost of a mudra, which we'd have to choose to do damage immediately or prepare for another TA.

In m6s, I find myself needing to use raiton more than the supposed aoes needed due to how weak and limited our aoe is when there is a target that MUST be dealt with asap to the point single targetting and only giving out a frog is preferred due to how fast we must eliminate these targets.

Mug being a 120 cd makes it hard to get value out of when there are no targets to target for it that makes it worth doing so during the fight. This usually leads to a delay of it and it is to reallocate resources just for a certain comp, to deal with an issue before it affects the 4th wave.

We have bunshin, and honestly, just for this fight, it feels like this should be 60 seconds due to how much we're lacking and doton takes a while for the full value of it to be taken and it isn't much either with hollow nozuchi.

Machinist also suffers a similar issue as ninja, they've got decent single target options for the cat at the very least, and 2 chain saws they can assemble.

But their auto crossbow, an aoe tool, is bad because it can't even recharge the ogcds it has and flamethrower's a joke to use, it builds no gauge at all and it is effectively a worse auto attack on a server tick.

Obviously, we can't pad out the time before death occurs by the jabbawock as fights are scripted and doton slow while nice if it worked, would prolong certain events as the fight will still go on and possibly cause issues while pulling the pack around.

At the very least, their aoe combo should've been buffed or generate a lot more ninki than it should without bunshin, even the frog could use a buff to finally be a gain on 2 targets, we don't have an aoe version of raiju, and tenri is at least a tool we can use to allocate damage somewhere else in a 30 second window.

Meanwhile, with a DD, VPR easily resolves the adds for obvious reasons, they even get 3 katons for free that comes with ogcds despite the damage falloff.

i had too many text

[Inanegrain]

There are elements of ninja's aoe capabilities that could've been looked at instead of nerfing the basic combo from 130 to 120, I don't even know why MCH got a reduction in potency.

Goka, Katon, hellfrog, even Huton, could use some buffs even if they do not have fall off damage, heck, im unsure if there were thoughts of the unintended usage of doton leading to it's current state was still needed, I'd rather think it'd be a great idea to reduce the timer even further only to increase the potency per tick slightly.

Heck, reducing the timer of TCJ would still be something ninja could have, it wont solve the issues it has with m6s, but it is something that could've been there since the start of this expansion and I'd think someone else has suggested this before.

The 2nd jabba requires immediate resources and all I have is TA and a hyosho and a raiton raiju for it to barely kill it with a lot of help needed while VPR easily resolves it with proper gauge management and still has what is effectively a katon with ogcds that comes with their kit.

Kazematoi has nothing for aoe, we build so much more gauge with single targets despite a pack of enemies being there with targets that need to die asap that discourages aoe even more while doton takes 18 seconds for 480 potency to be applied, and they certainly aren't meant to stay alive for long aside from yans, but they're not the immediate threat within the phase. Make doton bigger? Who knows, it might actually work to give doton a 30yard range.

Again, it can be cleared with ninja, but I'm certain there are certain comps that make it a lot more painful than it needs to be, it's at the point where I'd think it's reasonable for PF to lock out ninja after trying so hard only to have literally nothing available for wave 4 of adds due to... whatever comp it is that I have that was good enough to even reach wave 4 with decent cleaving by the tanks pulling the pack around which I swapped to vpr and easily solved the issues mentioned.

[ThurinTurambar]

While i agree with majority of this, flamethrower is actually 'decent' damage (it ticks every 1s), so its equivalent to 250 potency gcd dps. Alas its inferior to heat blast, same as auto crossbow up to x enemies.
Recent base aoe nerf that mch suffered makes me think that devs really do not understand this job. I could see 3 possible reasons: first is 'balancing out' the buff to splash aoe on 90+ actions (which is hard to argue for as we can clearly tell how's mch standing in aoe on m6s lol). 2nd reason could be that they wanted to make base aoe gain on 3 instead of 2 vs the base single target combo (which they could have done by buffing 123 a bit instead, which would also make it more viable in single target scenario). Last, more scary reason i can think of is that devs saw that auto crossbow is underutilised... so they thought that its because its same potency as base aoe, so suuurely players must not understand that its actually better, lets show them with number difference!. This is particularly scary as it would mean they dont understand how mch is being played in current form and dont take any feedback from players but just look at some numbers they gather.

[Inanegrain]

an issue with mch i'd have about that with flamethrower is the lack of gauge build up, either battery or heat, this makes flamethrower not as preferred and used when the mch is actually trying to save resources instead which is almost non-existent outside of dungeons. I do not see a use for it outside of ticking a boss once as it comes back from being removed from the arena.
I think I've mentioned this already but it might be lost in text somewhere as it was an off ramble. A factor holding it back from being used is gauge management and it's more of a method of holding instead while banking gcds for battery in another phase for example.

Automaton queen/wildfire at least has a asingle target use in add phase, but it is going to run out of juice similar to NIN, at the very least they have bioblaster on a 20 second charge timer, but due to the fact cats and rays exist, they're better of using drill instead and assure that these adds in particular are dead.

Most of these issues with adds will go away once gear arrives, but for a week 1, this is incredibly painful for comps that are lacking in aoe for their kit.

I've been thinking about how overkill would double vpr be for their high base aoe attacks and single targets with reawakening effectively being sufficient enough to kill/cleave rays, jabba and yan with the amount of tools they have that fit the scenario perfectly.

I'd think mnk,rpr,sam,drg are perfectly fine as well with some of their gcds/ogcds naturally cleave while nin has no fall off, they're very lacking in "natural cleaves".

[brinn12]

I don't know why Scattergun got nerfed. Even with the overall AoE damage getting buffed, it was obvious that MCH needed more. Spread Shot also got a nerf due to it being an earlier version of Scattergun, down to BRD's Quick Nock level. Machinist actually had to get nerfed in lower levels just so that its AoE buff in higher levels could make sense.

SE has no idea what to do with Machinist. Every time the job gets buffed, it feels like it came out of a brainstorm session. They never seem to know what to buff or how much. Even now in level 100, Wildfire and Battery still don't interact with AoE, while everything in BRD and DNC's burst does. Considering the job got a major rework not too long ago, it's strange that its toolkit still has so many flaws. Then again, maybe the real issue is that the people behind it were told AoE and Crits didn’t matter.

[Carighan]

Actually if we drill down into a lot of issues with MCH, we'll always find the same two things somewhere around the bottom:

* Double Check and Checkmate being needlessly two buttons for no reason.
* The fact that one single attack - Heat Blast - cycles their CDs but nothing else does.

Of course, one could just make Auto Crossbow also cycle their CDs and make Flamethrower remove all charges you currently hold for them and increase its own damage accordingly. The devs never did something like that though, so clearly they're not willing to.

In lieu of that, admittedly far better, solution, I'd say remove them both and make something interesting from the animations. Like they're unlocked by unloading the whole heated chain or something, then fired once for massive damage (the animation would look fitting if played more slowly I suppose), I dunno. I prefer just balancing AC and FT against them, but they are the core reason things always unbalance, especially now that - for absolutely 0 reason - both are essentially the same ability.

[Inanegrain]

After spending some time as ninja and hitting 10% enrage for M7S and found no particular issue for adds or any other problems in a single day, I've got some conclusions.

MCH is better than Ninja in m6s due to adds
Having tried my best to stick with ninja due to m6s adds blocking me for 3 days or more was problematic in my time to clear.
It isn't an overtuned issue, however, I will applaud the NINs who managed to find pfs to clear M6S while trying to keep up for the group in dps.
It is more likely Ninja would be brought into M6S to pad for parsing for how bad they are at aoe that lets other jobs hit harder in aoe as they are literally required to single target instead of aoe in most situations, even with gear, I highly doubt aoe will beat st in dps due to the lack of ninki and pitiful damage in filler mode, at most Goka and Katon would be used more.
VPR will remain a far more easier pick later on even if the adds die too fast during add phase, because they get to hit the boss instead.

Ninja is just lacking in aspects that fit M6S scenario mainly due to lack of sustained aoe damage as they're all burst while the add spawns in a stagger and will require resource to burn down either way which NIN is lacking even in dungeons if packs are not dead within 30 seconds if they do not pool their resources in w2w (delay bunshin to next pack instead of using in 2m burst as an example).

[kackal_Jackal]

Aside from NIN just having a very weak AOE rotation (that does need buffed), I want to highlight how NIN's AOE kit seems poorly thought out, incomplete and not particularly fun to play.

- We have Kazematoi, that is single-target only, and it never gets used in AOE situations (look at DRG who still generates Wyrmwinds). So in AOE, I basically don't use our new gauge.
- Katon doesn't have a follow-up like Raiton does. It feels incredibly bad to use Katon and just never use our lvl 90 captstone skill (Raiju). Wouldn't even be a bad thing to have an AOE equivalent to Raiju, and just have it share a button.
- Meisui doesn't even buff Hellfrog/Deathfrog. For literally no reason. Naturally I'm going to want to use Meisui, even in AOE, just for that free 50 ninki, but Hellfrog isn't particularly strong, and barely would beat out the loss of switching from Katon to Huton.

Then you have a situation of M6S where the adds move rather frequently. A large chunk of our damage comes from doton, and when it's likely they'll get pulled out of it, it sort of sucks even more to have to recast it. Possibly shorten the duration + increase its damage, or give us the option to move it once.

Our AOE combo is literally two buttons and they both suck (like you need 4+ targets to even THINK of using it). I have more issues with the fact it's not very creative. It needs better ninki generation and to utilize our Kazematoi by generating/burning it. People like hitting buttons, but god the +5 ninki per GCD means you need to do the whole combo 5 times before you get a hellfrog. That's every 21 seconds for 50 ninki, not even counting the fact you're likely using Ninjutsus on top of that.

I can talk about our little passive cleave, but I think that's less of a big deal compared to like... everything else.

[Inanegrain]

It took me a while to realize who was it above me that posted on this thread, I appreciate you and the other mentors pushing how far you can do with ninja.

While I'm mainly a savage pfer since shb, I'm going to add on even further in the next post for how absurd the week 1 difference that shattered my confidence in ninja despite having benchmarked with the same 7 people who are good enough for pf.

I attempted to delay bunshin a few gcds around the 1m after deserts into tb adds, this lets me have a choice to cleave the cat and the yan with PK as I do my standard raiton raiju + suiton on the yan for the 4 squirrels 2m which I have to delay unlike the other buff jobs that can use on cd without losing value.

Bunshin on cd still works, however, I only have enough time to PK the two mus which is also an option, both of these options let me have bunshin to PK jabba cleaves. I will always reserve tenri for 1st jabba, but keep in mind, TCJ is still 120 and not 110.

The next branch of this rotation is if I delayed my 2m a little bit longer to cleave the ray (The tank is already amazing and very much knew how to pull the adds quick), this caused an issue in 3rd/4th wave as it will not be up to kill a single ray + cleaving pack.
Using it on cd does let me get away with it, but it will be on the 2 squirrels instead and very sub optimal until I get better gear later on, this is still week 1 for what I'm describing.

The next option is to use it asap as the 4 squirrels are on the field (in fact, this entire situation could've been avoided if all 4 squirrels spawned at the same time), however, this kind of still makes it tight for the rays and I somewhat hit a roadblock on 3/4 wave as I literally lack the burst left to deal with major issues such as the plans I had of:

Delay TA and hyosho the 2nd jabba once it reaches the pack and Goka instead (Healer died)
TA on CD just on the jabba and yan up north and single target as usual, raiton, hyosho, etc (Healer still died due to some sub-optimal mistakes but despite all of my biggest hits and bhavas as it had a bit of health more to kill)
Succeed in killing the 2nd jabba with either of these variations will lead to... I am literally out of buttons to press to kill a ray or cleave besides our pathetic aoe gcd combo till my 2m comes back up.
I initially had DP and requested a swap to a blm cause they're buffing on cd, and that is good, this isn't bad, that is good and the blm aoe sustain is so much better than mine.



I have nothing to deal with this threat besides bunshin that should be coming back a few gcds later, however, even with on cd bunshin, I still lacked the dps to kill a single ray, we met enrage by arena being flooded.
I may have done sub optimal things in week 1, but I'm quite certain I did my best in multiple pfs to refine it as much as possible.

[Inanegrain]

Now, in the same exact group, I swap to vpr, I'll talk about double vpr later for how much it turns a week 1 check into a week 8 check where it feels like everyone has gear.

I'm unoptimzed, not exactly good/perfect to the point I'd put myself in nin, but I progged and... we got through adds even with actions I consider bad. I got the DP back for obvious reasons even if they buff on cd.

I do not need to reawaken to kill the first yan, I am now able to throw what's effectively katons for free at the yan if the cat jumps into while nin has a meager frog that's only a gain on 3 targets.
I used serpent's ire on cd as usual, I built up 90 gauge on the yan after spending gauge to stop cap during the tb, mus spawn, the tank does a perfect pull as usual, I burst the ray down to the point it can't even spawn a single puddle, we move to the next one immediately, the yan is obviously not spawning yet, I finish my reawakening and have 100 gauge, to stop myself from using it again, I dump my coils till the jabba spawn, if I'm out of coils and I have 100 gauge? I overcapped 10-20 gauge by finishing my combo or using aoe vicewinder that is more than sufficient to clean up the ray

The jabba spawns, the tank foots the jabba, the cat jumps onto the tank, I've already reawakened and I'm baeting everything to death, everything is now dead including the cat so I can go back to beating the lone yan, in fact, all of us are, there's nothing else to target besides the boss and the yan.

I built up to 70 gauge while hitting the yan vicewinder as well, it is still alive but it is a lot lower, the 2nd jabba spawns, tank foots it and I begin to beat it to death with reawakening, it still lives, but guess what, I still have another vicewinder to spend and it's dead near the middle with so much more time than before. I finish my vicewinder combo on the ray and- oh now, I got a dd from the cat by accident?....

The cat's dead, I have a DD, the tank with the yan pulls it to the ray which I find odd but it isn't buffing the mus so w/e, we've done a discussion about this before and my next choice with this dd is...
I intensively target the ray while cleaving the mu pack, I aoe vicewinder again on the pack w and serpent's ire 9 seconds so I have another reawakening available soon at 50 gauge, the ray's dead but the pack lives, I moved to the yan and reawaken before buffs come out with a DD still active. Somehow, the yan is dead and so is the ray as I swap targets to finished off my reawakening combo on it.

I still have a reawakening and this time, I'm under buffs, with serpent's Ire reawakening I easily clean up the pack, I finish the combo, but it's still not dead, and it's casting it's enrage... but I have a coil OR a vicewinder...

I vicewinder the final mu as it dies, I also hit the boss a few times as I peel off to the yan, so I have 30 gauge at the end of this where everything is dead.