m6s adds phase overtuned?

[Wilford111]

Surprised to not see a post like this in the forums yet. Anyone else think the adds in m6s have a little too much HP? Honestly, the fight as a whole isn't too bad up until that point. Then during adds, every party I've been in falls apart. Some jobs are clearly way better than others as far as AoE goes.

I dunno, you can say "git gud" or whatever, but I feel like adds phase is an unnatural difficulty spike for where it is in the tier. And from what I've been hearing m7s isn't even that bad in comparison.

EDIT: I just cleared But I still think the adds are overtuned.
EDIT2: m7s is that bad.

[Supersnow845]

From what it’s looking like it’s not necessarily overtuned it’s the fact that cleave in this game just isn’t terribly well balanced for the purpose of what M6 asks from the player

Cleave is decently balanced in a dungeon where you all just stand in a pack and wail on trash that doesn’t do any mechanic but when you introduce limitations in movement and control to cleave then it kinda falls apart

For example SCH is terrible in adds phase because it gets rooted to the spot in the corner and its AOE is self targeted. WHM can smuggle damage in via misery but it can really mess things up by using holy as most mobs have a stun priority. Meanwhile something like VPR simply cleaves by nature of doing its burst so functions very well

So cleave is decently balanced in a vacuum, but in practice it’s an unbalanced mess. Which is why VPR has 7.1 PCT in FRU carry potential in adds phase

[shiftweave]

I think that the fight itself is tuned correctly for a week 1 experience - it will be nerfed by tomestone gear creep in the following weeks. However I do not think that the jobs are at all balanced. If you look at vpr/nin in particular in this fight it's a huge meme. I don't know what they were thinking with the 7.2 patch notes but whoever balances the jobs should purchase a calculator. Buffing PK does not compensate. NIN/VPR are closer in a sustained target dummy 5 target fight but ninja is heavily dependent on its burst for that - m6s is not sustained enough for that to pan out.

[Voryn]

It seems ok to me because when people are trying to clear they use their potions pretty late into the add phase instead of using them early to burst down the squirrels, mantas, or jabberwock. Those feel manageable if people are playing well. So I think the issue isn’t necessarily that the adds are too strong, but that it can be really hard to figure out where the problems are when they arise, and then we can get stuck in a party that’s not sure what’s wrong.

If I die to autos as tank, then did I not mitigate enough? Or did the healer not heal enough? It’s hard to tell when we’re all learning the fight but we need to figure it out so I stop dying.

If the adds just not dying fast enough and then hitting me with a lot more autos than they should (or are enraging, or the jabberwock is killing the healer, or the mantas are dropping so many puddles), what went wrong? Is anyone in particular doing low damage? It’s again hard to tell, but is necessary to figure out.

I can’t trust people in Party Finder to admit they made mistakes with the above things, because as I’ve raided with many different people I’ve run into many who don’t know how to play their jobs properly in the first place but still made it to the second floor of Savage. If I’m in a party and I don’t know what’s going wrong then I might just have to leave.

[Arohk]

I am starting to hate this fight man, i am stuck on the add phase for days now because no one does enough damage to clear this crap.

[AllenThyl]

I am starting to hate this fight man, i am stuck on the add phase for days now because no one does enough damage to clear this crap.

The problem that isn't properly understood by pf (since it's also not explained in any guide), is that the add phase is not a damage check, it's 3 consecutive ones. It's pointless if a group burns all their CDs on the very first manta and clearing the first dps check with 250% (water every 10 seconds, you can afford 1 puddle, meaning 15 seconds to kill the manta), but be completely out of juice for everything else. Tell your dps in the group to divide themselves. One melee should use their big burst on the manta, while the other uses only small stuff, like one minutes. Classes that have resource based burst like VPR, RPR and MNK are good choices for the first burst. The 2nd melee will burn their big bursts on the first Jabber. Also, if you get dps like SAM or NIN, they should use their ranged burst on the cat whenever they can. Because if the cat is dead, the ranged can focus on whatever is to be downed atm as well. Further, it's also very important that the adds are brought to the manta asap and properly stacked there. Tanks have a tendency to just move so that they are in range for the manta, while the adds are behind them, thus not getting cleaved. Same is true during Jabberphase. Lastly, some of the adds live quite long from the time they spawned (30 - 45 seconds, the whole phase is over 2 minutes), meaning that dots can do their full damage on adds like the west mantas, the yans, even the cats when focussed live for most of the dot duration.

[Arohk]

The problem that isn't properly understood by pf (since it's also not explained in any guide), is that the add phase is not a damage check, it's 3 consecutive ones.

if only that was the only problem , i am usually tanking so the damage is not under my control, the one time i got there as Viper i saved up all my cd's and full gauge and that was the only time the adds died really quickly.
there is also a lot of other things that can go wrong and one mistake is an instant wipe.

Yan spawns > one Mu is too close = wipe
someone accidantaly hit a manta with an AOE when it spawns = wipe
someone gets hit by the cat = wipe
DPS misses their LB = usually wipe

i also encountered a new problem yesterday, when the MT was a warrior, he created so much healing aggro with nascent flash that he pulled aggro of my Yan which caused it to enrage...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKKSgdCSglE

[Eesh]

i also encountered a new problem yesterday, when the MT was a warrior, he created so much healing aggro with nascent flash that he pulled aggro of my Yan which caused it to enrage...

Lol that happened to me in M7, pulled add from DRK and took away LoS protection from teammates over the other side of the arena.

On M6. I know the adds are tuned REALLY tightly but it's not overtuned I think. As mentioned, gear will (and HAS) make it exponentially easier as weeks go on. After that it's just a dps priority check and checking your capacity to stay cool in the chaos and go down the list of targets in order.

My main issue is that healers seem to have forgotten how to properly manage tanks. The refusal to deign a GCD heal has thrown a few runs into the trash.

[millktea]

Heals need to gcd dps, too, bc that dps check is way too tight. I've done gcd heals, but spamming cure 2 is expensive and doing 1 misery, the tank just dies?

It's not just a healing thing. I had a static I'm no longer with because the melee leader basically said "dark missionary is useless, just tetra the tanks".

Other times the Yan tank dies is if I get selected for the bind from the jabberwock. There shouldn't be so much damage from that. And sometimes tanks are too far away to heal

[mallleable]

Adds seem fine, but job balance seem really bad. It feels like there are too many jobs that are just straight up missing cleave, and burst damage that can used outside of raid buffs.