Thread: More Story like 7.2 Please!

The big patch reception thing that I remember was 5.2 to 5.3, but I would argue that was mostly circumstance; 5.2 was the patch that was live when the pandemic hit, so 5.2 was the patch we were left on for half a year when not just development slowed down, but the whole world did. And I genuinely think it kinda broke people: 5.2 was a pretty bad patch for an extended cliffhanger, people definitely overcomplicated the information we were given in that story because we had nothing better to do. And... broadly speaking it kinda wasn't a good patch; the dungeon was a bit meh, the relic step was just a limp tomestone handover (a really bad thing when we desperately need long-term stuff to do), the Savage tier was one of the more ill-received ones in recent years. Ishgardian Restoration was a highlight, but the actual progress and leaderboard stuff only held for a couple weeks. It would've been fine if it only stood for the expected period, but instead 5.2 had to be 'current content' for twice as long.

5.3 is by no means a slouch, and there's a lot positive to say about it: .3 patch MSQs almost always go pretty hard, the dungeon and trial were both strong (even if I still think the trial phase transition is an absolute debacle), the Puppets' Bunker is generally considered the best Nier raid (it's my personal favorite alliance raid in general), and the Bozjan Southern Front is pretty solid. But... I think it was more 'what people needed at the time' than anything. It's a good patch, but I don't think it'd be seen as the best patch if it released in more typical times and release windows.

Originally Posted by Cilia

[...]and Fandaniel was initially seen as a step back from the pathos provided by Emet-Selch and Elidibus.

This, though, I think is one of the more interesting things to look back on. Because yeah, at the time of the patches, Fandaniel wasn't looked on very fondly, whereas now he's considered maybe the breakout character of the Endwalker leadup and story arc. In the Shadowbringers patches, before he got his whole story, he was seen as a bit of a thinly-written clown. (Similar to some of the more dismissive comments you see around Calyx now, although Calyx definitely isn't comedic.) People kinda don't remember that.

...but here's the thing even less people remember: so was Emet-Selch during Stormblood's patches. He was really unpopular at the time, because he was kinda just seen as a distracting, scene-stealing scenery-chewer who was bringing back a storyline that wasn't all that popular; remember that all the reasons anybody likes the Ascians came during Shadowbringers. I want to say Elidibus had the same thing going, I think he was generally considered an 'I guess he's here again' sort of presence until 5.3 basically spent its whole story giving him an actual character, but I admit I can't really speak for audience response around him; he was around before I was playing, and was very much a background conversational detail for a decent period when I was. Like, nobody really talked about him on any level.

Agree.
7.2 was more like the better patches of this game regarding the story.

Sphene felt like a character (imo one of the best for me personally right now) the WoL actually mattered and Calyx seems to be an interesting villain.

It was high time Wuk Lamat got a much needed break from the spotlight.
The whole highlight of this game is that the WoL has an important spot in the story and is directly interacted with.
They aren’t always the MC but they do slide into that position often (Zenos, Emet Selch’s relation with us, us taking on the Heavensward and Niddhog, going back in time or being a reincarnation of Azem) and outside of it they need to interact with others like with Sphene.

7.1 was already a step in the right direction from 7.0 minus Koanas sudden Cow friendship and the “well” placed exposition NPC.

I think that’s what the game needs and what it does best. Interesting characters that grow on you BECAUSE they interact with the player character instead of a glorified NPC, that interact with you and not Y’shtola calling someone she doesn’t even know instead of us because it’s the creators pet.
Characters that have actual depths and go into more philosophical themes instead of pure shonen the entire time.

More of 7.2, less of 7.0 please.
Thank you and good job.

Originally Posted by Cleretic

... [A]t the time of the patches, Fandaniel wasn't looked on very fondly, whereas now he's considered maybe the breakout character of the Endwalker leadup and story arc. In the Shadowbringers patches, before he got his whole story, he was seen as a bit of a thinly-written clown.

...but here's the thing even less people remember: so was Emet-Selch during Stormblood's patches.

... ish. The initial response to Emet-Selch was a bit lukewarm, but by no means dismissive. On the one hand you had the people curious about the meaning behind his words and actions, and on the other you had the people who wanted their anti-Hydaelyn views vindicated. He provided both by the end of Shadowbringers MSQ (5.0) on top of a significant amount of pathos, which is why he's so fondly remembered (if you ask me).

Fandaniel (Hermes / Amon) actually got something of a negative reception, at least on this forum (where I engage in most discussions about this game). I like him, and I'm sure other people do, but that's on account of my understanding his depression and feelings of "otherness" because of it (I have a personality disorder); dedicated fans of the Ancients did not like him for exposing flaws in their supposedly utopian civilization.

Originally Posted by Cleretic

I'm sorry, but the only thing the Warrior of Light does across all of 7.2 is walk into traps and fight robots.

In a role reversal from 7.0, we spent a lot of time talking and bonding with the "real" Sphene. Combine that with her being surprisingly well written in contrast to what else has come out of Dawntrail and the spotlight being on her and the Player Character, and it's no surprise 7.2's gotten a warmer reception. Having the NPCs talk to us instead of being almost a nonentity is a huge improvement and no doubt contributed to Sphene's instant popularity; it works pretty well, as both Emet-Selch and Exarch G'raha demonstrated.

(Even "Simulant" Sphene is more interested in the PC than her "frail, fleshy" counterpart on account of having the key Calyx needs, the latter of whom virtually ignores his ostensible Queen.)

Originally Posted by Cilia

Fandaniel (Hermes / Amon) actually got something of a negative reception, at least on this forum (where I engage in most discussions about this game). I like him, and I'm sure other people do, but that's on account of my understanding his depression and feelings of "otherness" because of it (I have a personality disorder); dedicated fans of the Ancients did not like him for exposing flaws in their supposedly utopian civilization.

Yeah, there's your problem: this forum is a deeply unrepresentative corner of the game's community, to the point where it's a laughing stock in other places. It's sort of an internet-wide thing; 'the official forums for a thing' have been generally considered to be one of the worst places to discuss said thing since... I want to say the early 2010s? Right around when Reddit and Discord really got rolling, and made community-run spaces a lot easier to find and maintain.

In fact, Endwalker made these forums' difference form the central community abundantly clear, and Fandaniel was one of the clearest ways to see it: he was really popular overall, to the point where the developers actually got surprised--paraphrasing an interview here, they were going for 'complicated but people will like him more than don't', but were shooting for a 60/40 split; they feel like the result was somewhere around 80/20. He did well in community polls I can find from the time, too; he was always the least popular Ancient, but that's mostly because Emet, Hyth, and Venat (who is the absolute clearest example of what I'm talking about) were overwhelmingly dominant. Hermes, meanwhile, was instead beating Alphinaud and Urianger; far from a slouch.

In that case I'd broadly put that down to the fact that most 'dedicated fans of the Ancients' aren't actually the sorts of fans that you've seen here, that were moralizing about it and claiming objective goods and evils far from what the game put forward; that's actually a vast minority of that community. Most Ancient fans just see them as people in a story they like; in their case, a grand tragedy. Hermes and Venat aren't hated for destroying paradise; they're beloved for being very big parts of that story, being tragic figures in their own right.

I'm glad to see people enjoying 7.2 after all the negativity around Dawntrail. I feel like the cutscenes were well staged and felt more...dynamic? than XIV scenes usually are.

I do feel a bit disconnected from the community in that I don't feel particularly attached to real Sphene-I don't have a problem with her but I don't find her any more compelling than Endless Sphene before her. From reading comments I guess this disconnect comes from me actually enjoying the WoL not being a centre of attention in Dawntrail so I'm not reacting strongly to NPCs focusing on them again now.

Originally Posted by Moomba33

From reading comments I guess this disconnect comes from me actually enjoying the WoL not being a centre of attention in Dawntrail so I'm not reacting strongly to NPCs focusing on them again now.

I can't speak for anyone else, but it's not so much "We weren't the center of attention" and more "We had virtually no role to play in this story." Heavensward and Stormblood both do not center on the PC; but they do still have a role in the story as the deuteragonist (though an argument for them being the tritagonist in Heavensward can be made). Dawntrail reduces them (after 2 expansions as the protagonist) to just being Wuk Lamat's hanger-on, contributing nothing other than beating up whatever's in her way until the story's only got minutes to midnight (and even then Lamaty'i steals their thunder with seconds on the clock).

7.2 isn't really about the PC; it's about Sphene, but it works better because it's not extended like Wuk Lamat's arc was. The PC is really just a sounding board for her, but because we're already informed about what sort of person she is from her Endless replica it's easier to connect with her (since this is Sphene without the behavioral modifications forcing her to antagonize us).