Thread: More Story like 7.2 Please!

Originally Posted by Cassar

For the people that have been doing this for longer than me, how was the sentiment for other expansions? Like for Heavensward and Stormblood and Shadowbringers, how were the patches' MSQ received?

That's a difficult question to answer, because those patch storylines were 3/5 completing the X.0 storyline and 2/5 setting up the forthcoming expansion.

3.1 - 3.3 was... fairly well received. 3.1 - 3.2 was kind of slow, but 3.3 provided catharsis and wrapped up the Heavensward story with emotional highs. 3.4 just kind of was, while 3.5(.5) was kind of mixed since the Ala Mhigans did not come across as particularly sympathetic at the time.

4.1 was the "just kind of was" patch that hurriedly wrapped the Ala Mhigan storyline. 4.2 - 4.3 were very well received for portraying Yotsuyu (who in 4.0 was quite unsympathetic) with a significant degree of pathos. 4.4 - 4.5 were... kind of out of left field, and while they weren't poorly received there was a lot of uncertainty as to how Shadowbringers would play out.

5.1 - 5.3 were very well received, both for portraying Elidibus with pathos and wrapping up the well-received Shadowbringers plot. 5.4 - 5.5 were somewhat mixed, because they started to wrap up the offscreen war with Garlemald and Fandaniel was initially seen as a step back from the pathos provided by Emet-Selch and Elidibus.

The big patch reception thing that I remember was 5.2 to 5.3, but I would argue that was mostly circumstance; 5.2 was the patch that was live when the pandemic hit, so 5.2 was the patch we were left on for half a year when not just development slowed down, but the whole world did. And I genuinely think it kinda broke people: 5.2 was a pretty bad patch for an extended cliffhanger, people definitely overcomplicated the information we were given in that story because we had nothing better to do. And... broadly speaking it kinda wasn't a good patch; the dungeon was a bit meh, the relic step was just a limp tomestone handover (a really bad thing when we desperately need long-term stuff to do), the Savage tier was one of the more ill-received ones in recent years. Ishgardian Restoration was a highlight, but the actual progress and leaderboard stuff only held for a couple weeks. It would've been fine if it only stood for the expected period, but instead 5.2 had to be 'current content' for twice as long.

5.3 is by no means a slouch, and there's a lot positive to say about it: .3 patch MSQs almost always go pretty hard, the dungeon and trial were both strong (even if I still think the trial phase transition is an absolute debacle), the Puppets' Bunker is generally considered the best Nier raid (it's my personal favorite alliance raid in general), and the Bozjan Southern Front is pretty solid. But... I think it was more 'what people needed at the time' than anything. It's a good patch, but I don't think it'd be seen as the best patch if it released in more typical times and release windows.

Originally Posted by Cilia

[...]and Fandaniel was initially seen as a step back from the pathos provided by Emet-Selch and Elidibus.

This, though, I think is one of the more interesting things to look back on. Because yeah, at the time of the patches, Fandaniel wasn't looked on very fondly, whereas now he's considered maybe the breakout character of the Endwalker leadup and story arc. In the Shadowbringers patches, before he got his whole story, he was seen as a bit of a thinly-written clown. (Similar to some of the more dismissive comments you see around Calyx now, although Calyx definitely isn't comedic.) People kinda don't remember that.

...but here's the thing even less people remember: so was Emet-Selch during Stormblood's patches. He was really unpopular at the time, because he was kinda just seen as a distracting, scene-stealing scenery-chewer who was bringing back a storyline that wasn't all that popular; remember that all the reasons anybody likes the Ascians came during Shadowbringers. I want to say Elidibus had the same thing going, I think he was generally considered an 'I guess he's here again' sort of presence until 5.3 basically spent its whole story giving him an actual character, but I admit I can't really speak for audience response around him; he was around before I was playing, and was very much a background conversational detail for a decent period when I was. Like, nobody really talked about him on any level.

Agree.
7.2 was more like the better patches of this game regarding the story.

Sphene felt like a character (imo one of the best for me personally right now) the WoL actually mattered and Calyx seems to be an interesting villain.

It was high time Wuk Lamat got a much needed break from the spotlight.
The whole highlight of this game is that the WoL has an important spot in the story and is directly interacted with.
They aren’t always the MC but they do slide into that position often (Zenos, Emet Selch’s relation with us, us taking on the Heavensward and Niddhog, going back in time or being a reincarnation of Azem) and outside of it they need to interact with others like with Sphene.

7.1 was already a step in the right direction from 7.0 minus Koanas sudden Cow friendship and the “well” placed exposition NPC.

I think that’s what the game needs and what it does best. Interesting characters that grow on you BECAUSE they interact with the player character instead of a glorified NPC, that interact with you and not Y’shtola calling someone she doesn’t even know instead of us because it’s the creators pet.
Characters that have actual depths and go into more philosophical themes instead of pure shonen the entire time.

More of 7.2, less of 7.0 please.
Thank you and good job.

Originally Posted by Cleretic

... [A]t the time of the patches, Fandaniel wasn't looked on very fondly, whereas now he's considered maybe the breakout character of the Endwalker leadup and story arc. In the Shadowbringers patches, before he got his whole story, he was seen as a bit of a thinly-written clown.

...but here's the thing even less people remember: so was Emet-Selch during Stormblood's patches.

... ish. The initial response to Emet-Selch was a bit lukewarm, but by no means dismissive. On the one hand you had the people curious about the meaning behind his words and actions, and on the other you had the people who wanted their anti-Hydaelyn views vindicated. He provided both by the end of Shadowbringers MSQ (5.0) on top of a significant amount of pathos, which is why he's so fondly remembered (if you ask me).

Fandaniel (Hermes / Amon) actually got something of a negative reception, at least on this forum (where I engage in most discussions about this game). I like him, and I'm sure other people do, but that's on account of my understanding his depression and feelings of "otherness" because of it (I have a personality disorder); dedicated fans of the Ancients did not like him for exposing flaws in their supposedly utopian civilization.

Originally Posted by Cleretic

I'm sorry, but the only thing the Warrior of Light does across all of 7.2 is walk into traps and fight robots.

In a role reversal from 7.0, we spent a lot of time talking and bonding with the "real" Sphene. Combine that with her being surprisingly well written in contrast to what else has come out of Dawntrail and the spotlight being on her and the Player Character, and it's no surprise 7.2's gotten a warmer reception. Having the NPCs talk to us instead of being almost a nonentity is a huge improvement and no doubt contributed to Sphene's instant popularity; it works pretty well, as both Emet-Selch and Exarch G'raha demonstrated.

(Even "Simulant" Sphene is more interested in the PC than her "frail, fleshy" counterpart on account of having the key Calyx needs, the latter of whom virtually ignores his ostensible Queen.)

Originally Posted by Cilia

Fandaniel (Hermes / Amon) actually got something of a negative reception, at least on this forum (where I engage in most discussions about this game). I like him, and I'm sure other people do, but that's on account of my understanding his depression and feelings of "otherness" because of it (I have a personality disorder); dedicated fans of the Ancients did not like him for exposing flaws in their supposedly utopian civilization.

Yeah, there's your problem: this forum is a deeply unrepresentative corner of the game's community, to the point where it's a laughing stock in other places. It's sort of an internet-wide thing; 'the official forums for a thing' have been generally considered to be one of the worst places to discuss said thing since... I want to say the early 2010s? Right around when Reddit and Discord really got rolling, and made community-run spaces a lot easier to find and maintain.

In fact, Endwalker made these forums' difference form the central community abundantly clear, and Fandaniel was one of the clearest ways to see it: he was really popular overall, to the point where the developers actually got surprised--paraphrasing an interview here, they were going for 'complicated but people will like him more than don't', but were shooting for a 60/40 split; they feel like the result was somewhere around 80/20. He did well in community polls I can find from the time, too; he was always the least popular Ancient, but that's mostly because Emet, Hyth, and Venat (who is the absolute clearest example of what I'm talking about) were overwhelmingly dominant. Hermes, meanwhile, was instead beating Alphinaud and Urianger; far from a slouch.

In that case I'd broadly put that down to the fact that most 'dedicated fans of the Ancients' aren't actually the sorts of fans that you've seen here, that were moralizing about it and claiming objective goods and evils far from what the game put forward; that's actually a vast minority of that community. Most Ancient fans just see them as people in a story they like; in their case, a grand tragedy. Hermes and Venat aren't hated for destroying paradise; they're beloved for being very big parts of that story, being tragic figures in their own right.

Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

The general fourm is a laughing stock not this particular sub. Sadly reddit is a really bad place to discuss the lore as most people really don't pay attention to the story or skip unvoiced cutscenes among other things. Thier dislike of Hermes echoes the things said here and comes from simply not reading.

Oh, yeah, absolutely. In all honesty I'm mainly here because, while other parts of the game do have generally taken-seriously, solid central community hubs (i.e. high-end gameplay has The Balance, crafting has Teamcraft), there just... isn't a similar place for lore and story discussion. That space never really solidified, so this subforum is one of the only places you can air and hear extended thoughts about that stuff, even if it's a poor place for it.

And yeah, I believe I did at one point describe the core problems of that sort of discussion here and in Reddit as 'overthinking vs. underthinking'. Here, you'll find someone who hasn't realized they're three degrees deep into their own speculation and have a completely insane long-shot take as a result. Meanwhile over on Reddit you'll see someone ask 'is the WoL a dragon' because they played one Dragoon quest and barely read any of it.

I'm glad to see people enjoying 7.2 after all the negativity around Dawntrail. I feel like the cutscenes were well staged and felt more...dynamic? than XIV scenes usually are.

I do feel a bit disconnected from the community in that I don't feel particularly attached to real Sphene-I don't have a problem with her but I don't find her any more compelling than Endless Sphene before her. From reading comments I guess this disconnect comes from me actually enjoying the WoL not being a centre of attention in Dawntrail so I'm not reacting strongly to NPCs focusing on them again now.