Please reduce tank healing power by a lot

[Arohk]

Because none of it matters?

Of course it matters, a player shouldnt need to go to an unreliable website to gain information what your stats do.

[Carighan]

Of course it matters, a player shouldnt need to go to an unreliable website to gain information what your stats do.

You're intentionally misconstructing that because you quoted only one line, skipping the one that expands on it and specifies it. Because Apkallu is correct, stats du not matter for ~all applications. PFs aren't restricted by "Must have optimal stats" but by "Must have X ilvl". You use max-ilvl gear. The game equips you max-ilvl gear. It teaches you max ilvl gear. It's about the ilvl, not the stats.

One could argue that this points towards the actual solution being removal of secondary stats, since they already lost virtually all meaning anyways. Maybe, maybe not. It'd be better to remove primary stats and the reliance on ilvl, but GW2 teaches us that this is not as clean a solution as it sounds.

Or to put it another way: Before even worrying about how secondary stats are explained, maybe they ought to be meaningful first. And thinking about that, maybe I'd scrap and replace all current secondary stats in favor of a more optional, "player customization", system. That is to say, remove all stats that cause damage gain the three red stats. Then create a bunch new ones, all not directly affecting damage but indirectly, maybe. You can increase animation/attack speed, but it proportionally lowers damage. Slightly higher gauge generation over time but smaller gauge payoff over time, but more flexible around limited windows so potentially useful. Runspeed, to a small degree (thinking 3-7% overall gain here). Healing on non-healers. Damage reduction against non-AoE attacks on non-tanks. Etc etc. The stuff where most would say "yeah nobody wants that!" but that's the point: By not offering the option that would automatically be the best one, the players are free to actuall pick by what they like without dropping optimization.

Or, as said, just remove the whole mess of extra stats because of how little it achieves for how much mess it causes.

[dspguy]

Secondary stats became dead when they removed Accuracy as a stat. There used to be a thought process around gear. You had to maintain that minimal accuracy and work your other gear around that.

Now? iLvl trumps all. There is very little to think about. Sure, if you had to choose between upgrading a SkillSpeed/Tenacity piece with a Crit/Det piece that is 10 iLvl higher, you'd do that. But, later on in the gear cycle, you'd still make that upgrade from a crit/det piece to a SS/Ten piece if it is 10-20 iLvl higher.

[Carighan]

Secondary stats became dead when they removed Accuracy as a stat. There used to be a thought process around gear. You had to maintain that minimal accuracy and work your other gear around that.

That's also not good decision making, tbh. It was still a fixed process, just with one more extra step involved. A good secondary stat system would be secondary. Meaning that it either enables player choice (accuracy did not, and neither do the current stats except for rare cases where the same job can be viable at different SPS points but then you usually still look at a foregone conclusion based on the items you're wearing) or it enables item differentiation between jobs. The second they'd never do given how many items there are already and how many jobs, plus if anything it ought to be done like in GW2 then.

But more importantly the old system wasn't the former either. Accuracy would only be a sensible secondary stat if the tradeoff was big enough so that intentionally making your skills unreliable for a big payoff in average damage would be worthwhile.
Say you drop to 90% hitrate, but you do 130% damage on average. Now it gets interesting: At 10% miss chance, your combos and entire rotation becomes utterly unreliable. But in return your damage is far higher. But hey if you miss your 120s skill(s), you're probably below average again, and the same goes for lacking whole resources like missing out on your self-buffing skill a few times in a row, while the other skills of the filler rotation connect. Maybe you'll starve on resource. Maybe you'll overflow on it as your spenders keep missing. But hey on average your damage is higher, so if you want that, go for it.

But, even that would be really really difficult to balance. People would math the optimal miss-chance to accept, and then it's a fixed gearing pattern again.

For proper secondary stats, they need to damage-unrelated. That enables player choice.

[Shurrikhan]

Secondary stats became dead when they removed Accuracy as a stat. There used to be a thought process around gear. You had to maintain that minimal accuracy and work your other gear around that.

That wasn't so much a thought process, though, as just an RNG/gil-sink layer varying the value of ilvl. The accuracy levels needed for each fight were all easily found online. Ilvl still trumped all insofar as it does today, but simply within the constraints of hitting minimum ilvl, which ultimately just made drop luck more conditional rather than really making the process of gear selection any more thoughtful.

Sure, if you had to choose between upgrading a SkillSpeed/Tenacity piece with a Crit/Det piece that is 10 iLvl higher, you'd do that.

Even these don't much apply thought, though. It just means that some pieces are just generally and objectively worse than others.

Good use of secondary stats, I would think, involves choice, not just further obfuscating constraints merely taking us further out of game and onto guides and otherwise-hidden formulae above a still ultimately vapid system.

For instance, on ARR Monk...

• minimal skillspeed could use Fracture with every ~30s ToD string to perfectly fill (i.e., waste none of) a Dragon/Twin's duration and could fill with Impulse Drive x2 on the strings between to ensure no possible buff downtime, while
• slightly higher could ensure buff uptime even within ID,
• faintly higher than that could do the "down-Demo" rotation, where DK drops on Demolish and DK (loses bonus damage on only the direct 70 potency and 130 for 20 potency lost in exchange for 75 more effective potency via Bootshine > DK prior, increased the lower your crit was) and Twin drops on DK and Twin (25, in exchange for 70 regardless of crit, via True > Twin prior),
• slightly higher still could use the 'unbuffed buffers' rotation where DK loses only DK and Twin loses only Twin in exchange for an extra Boot/True per Demolish and could IDx2 to do the same for ToD lines,
• a bit more than that could do the same even on a ToD fill without IDx2 and Fracture between ToD lines, and
• at truly ludicrous speeds you could finally get DK to affect itself even with two intervening Bootshines.

See how that gives 6+ gameplay-affecting and playstyle-matchable options regardless of fight... rather than just a single constraint on ilvl growth?

For proper secondary stats, they need to damage-unrelated. That enables player choice.

Tbf, there ultimately is no such thing. Anything that doesn't amount to a faster average clear time (i.e., when including also reliability of said clear) isn't going to be worthwhile, even if it may be felt. Which is then, in effect, damage. Even Piety, if it were well leveraged, would amount to that. As would movement speed.

No, all they need is to be pretty tightly balanced and felt. They don't need to try to hide or situationalize their damage contribution. If that's a side-effect of trying to feel distinct, so be it, but that shouldn't be a design target, only perhaps a means of achieving the actual goal.

[Shurrikhan]

If we were to hear that the devs are making another pass at secondary stats, though, here's about what I'd want to see from a rush-job:

• All secondary stat's effect (including effect per point) is now clearly shown in the character pane.
• Materia has been rehauled entirely, since its purpose in customization is now provided baseline (see below), forgoing the need for its inventory bloat. No more filling up gear just to load up your inventory with periodic spherical gear-feces. You now get just two pieces of materia, though each far more impactful -- one for your weapon and one for any part of your armor, with varied effect from which armor slot it's put into. Each new raid tier has a vaguely thematic materia drop, as does around near the end of MSQ on each expansion release.
• Skill Speed and Spell Speed combined into Haste. Direct Hit is gone. Crits are again +50% damage by default. Crit stat no longer increases crit damage, just chance. Excess chance is in all things converted into additional strength.
• Gear is simply Red, Yellow, or Blue (no secondary stats displayed), while there are only three secondary stats: Haste (Purple), Critical Hit (Orange), or Determination (Green), each of which can be generated by two gear colors. [DoH and DoL secondary stat colors likewise shuffled accordingly.]
• We now have a "Junction" ability, allowing us to set priority thresholds on how much of each secondary stat we want (based on % effect, unbuffed or only under a certain self-buff, such as GL or Shifu). Essentially, we prioritize a GCD threshold > Crit threshold > lesser GCD threshold (if not enough Blue or Red gear to do the first) > dump into Power, etc.
• Tenacity now only applies mitigation. Piety renamed to Vigor and now also increases HP recovery. Tenacity and Vigor are now "Tertiary" stats, completely separate from Crit, Power, and Haste. Swiftness added as a Tertiary stat, increasing movement speed. Swiftness is now Purple, Tenacity Orange, and Vigor Green.
• Yes, you can set which of the Tertiary stats you want as well, claiming that ilvl amount from each piece of gear en masse (just via those set target thresholds).
• Maaaybe we can also choose how much secondary stat to siphon off into our Materia instead, if they each get a color (perhaps just Red, Yellow, or Blue).

I.e., no more materia chore or obfuscation. All is just ilvl... but with you actually being able to say how you want that ilvl to be spent (towards a faster GCD, more crit chance, or bigger hits). So, set up your desired thresholds and fallbacks, and that's that. No obfuscation, no chores, more choice, and more interesting materia.

[Carighan]

Tbf, there ultimately is no such thing. Anything that doesn't amount to a faster average clear time (i.e., when including also reliability of said clear) isn't going to be worthwhile, even if it may be felt. Which is then, in effect, damage. Even Piety, if it were well leveraged, would amount to that. As would movement speed.

True, although we know from WoW's brief stint with triple-choices post-Cataclysm that if you arrange these choices smartly and balance the numbers well, people do actually pick odd choices just to add flavor to their character.

Like, I remember Priests had 3 variants of runspeed. One was feathers you ground target, they fall down, and anybody can pick them up for a brief burst of runspeed. Or you enhanced two existing buffs to also give runspeed. Or you enhanced a self-buff that already gives runspeed to also cleanse movement-reducing effects. That kind of choice. It might seem like the first option is clearly superior, but the complexity of placing them good and placing them quickly meant that quite often, people brought out the other effects, too. Ultimately it was all a wash though, you always had something increasing effective movement in some fashion.

[Awful]

They should add tier sets n such for player power, revamp the stats, add new ones, after playing M+ as a tank and dps it was nice to have the freedom of having my 4 piece tier set and both are very powerful for Ret paladin and Prot Paladin.

The Protection Paladin 2 set has a chance on hit to give you your strongest defensive proc on you for free for 4 seconds (50% dmg reduction) and gives you 15% dmg increase, the 4 set makes your Shield of the Righteous (your main attack) extend the duration of the buff, while also refunding holy power (your spender) to keep it going so it's like a mini game of can I keep up the mitigation and dmg buff while pulling the dungeon in the most effective way which also rewards me for being tanky.

FF 14 needs better stats, procs, even more item slots like trinkets with chance on hit stuff because gunning for Crit/Det + Melding DH as a tank is so old now and boring requiring you to avoid Tenacity which is just a worst DET stat with very minor defense additions to tanks who literally have anything they need for a tank buster or just Rampart + TBN/HoC/BW/HoS auto attacks in windows you know you won't be taking a TB, and that's not even including healer CDs like shields or dmg reduction CDs ontop of that.

[Shurrikhan]

True, although we know from WoW's brief stint with triple-choices post-Cataclysm that if you arrange these choices smartly and balance the numbers well, people do actually pick odd choices just to add flavor to their character.

Brief? It was the longest-lived system they had. 3-column talent full trees lasted 3 expansions, trimmed trees for 1, 3-choice grids for 4 (MoP, WoD, Legion, Shadowlands), and twin-trees for 2.

And that's a far cry from secondary stat choice, or the point I was making (that there is no such thing as a choice irrelevant to damage, since anything that didn't ultimately allow for any added damage opportunities or security in a fight concluded through damage would mean it didn't get any value... at which point it's strange to say that stats must be damage-unrelated in order to allow for choice).