Unsubs vs Resubs over BLM changes

[PyurBlue]

At the end of the day, if you want to be challenged, it should be coming from encounters. If you find jobs to be too easy, stop using third party tools to handhold you through encounters. I assure you the game is much harder that way.

Jobs are how we interact with encounters, unless we expect to have all of our skills removed and we dodge AoE's until the boss gets bored and gives up.

This is similar to the debate over CT raids. People have said that the problem is mostly ilvl creep, but my opinion is that level 50 content cannot be made interesting because level 50 jobs are not interesting.

People shouldn't have to work so hard to experience the full satisfaction of a job.

BLM wasn't even hard. It just had mechanics, which are now watered down or gone entirely. Mechanics are part of the fun.

I have a couple friends that loved blackmage but quitted the clas because it was to complicated for them to play, these players play for like 1-2 hours a Day. Now with the recent changes they love the class because... let me say it in thier words: "WOOOW look it just goes BOOOOM BOOOM BOOOM" xD

I can't speak to you and your friends' experiences, but I feel like unless a player was trying to force themselves to optimize while they're still learning, BLM then shouldn't have felt very different from BLM now for a new player. Yes there was a timer, but we had a free refresh from Paradox, which granted a free refresh from Fire III, which could be followed by a free refresh from Despair. Players were given 15 seconds to cast 2.8 sec GCD's that could also be made instant by Triple and Swift. Ice could be paused at will with Umbral Soul. Not optimal, but that's OK for a new player. Conversely, while the reduced cast time BLM now experiences makes it easier to maintain uptime, my experience with new players is that they tend to run at the first sign of danger. So even sub GCD casts might not be enough to prevent interruptions. Mid level players may benefit there though. So there were plenty of ways to play BLM in a forgiving manner that didn't require stripping it of all depth.

[Aelin_Ashryver]

I know more people who bounced off of black mage when they were new than I know die hard BLM mains. I think the changes benefit hugely those who really wanted to play the classic mage and found it to be too difficult. Maybe BLM could have dodged changes if it was a more niche playstyle but it's iconic within FF and also in the fantasy genre as a whole (classic mage stereotype) so it has a lot of people who were wanting to play it.

I enjoy both old and new BLM, new is more relaxed by far ofc but it's still satisfying to me. Still tweaks that can be made but overall I think the job was overdue some sort of change when every other job has had the same treatment. I'm still seein way more BLM players this expansion than any previous and it's nice to see. Also had a few randoms lament and be rude for no good reason for my having the audacity to load into an instance on BLM, be upset with changes sure. Don't take it out on people playing the job. Couple easy reports for those people.

[HikariKurosawa]

I know more people who bounced off of black mage when they were new than I know die hard BLM mains. I think the changes benefit hugely those who really wanted to play the classic mage and found it to be too difficult. Maybe BLM could have dodged changes if it was a more niche playstyle but it's iconic within FF and also in the fantasy genre as a whole (classic mage stereotype) so it has a lot of people who were wanting to play it.

I enjoy both old and new BLM, new is more relaxed by far ofc but it's still satisfying to me. Still tweaks that can be made but overall I think the job was overdue some sort of change when every other job has had the same treatment. I'm still seein way more BLM players this expansion than any previous and it's nice to see. Also had a few randoms lament and be rude for no good reason for my having the audacity to load into an instance on BLM, be upset with changes sure. Don't take it out on people playing the job. Couple easy reports for those people.

Yeah this is the main thing I think. Such a powerful and iconic job fantasy shouldn't ever be this niche interest that only the most dedicated players are able to perform at a reasonable level with. They should make a new caster for that experience that doesn't carry mainstream appeal, so people are playing it for the gameplay mechanics rather than the fantasy.

The idea that someone drawn to the fantasy of BLM would enjoy RDM or SMN or PCT is insane to me, and completely out of touch with why the point is even being made to begin with.

Jobs are how we interact with encounters, unless we expect to have all of our skills removed and we dodge AoE's until the boss gets bored and gives up.

This is similar to the debate over CT raids. People have said that the problem is mostly ilvl creep, but my opinion is that level 50 content cannot be made interesting because level 50 jobs are not interesting.


BLM wasn't even hard. It just had mechanics, which are now watered down or gone entirely. Mechanics are part of the fun.



I can't speak to you and your friends' experiences, but I feel like unless a player was trying to force themselves to optimize while they're still learning, BLM then shouldn't have felt very different from BLM now for a new player. Yes there was a timer, but we had a free refresh from Paradox, which granted a free refresh from Fire III, which could be followed by a free refresh from Despair. Players were given 15 seconds to cast 2.8 sec GCD's that could also be made instant by Triple and Swift. Ice could be paused at will with Umbral Soul. Not optimal, but that's OK for a new player. Conversely, while the reduced cast time BLM now experiences makes it easier to maintain uptime, my experience with new players is that they tend to run at the first sign of danger. So even sub GCD casts might not be enough to prevent interruptions. Mid level players may benefit there though. So there were plenty of ways to play BLM in a forgiving manner that didn't require stripping it of all depth.

Everyone who has access to this game has access to the internet and most people look up job guides or youtube videos when trying to learn a new job. They see how complex BLM is, and are put off because they know they're not doing all that.

[Aysin]

As I mentioned before, people who struggled to play BLM before are still going to struggle with BLM now. They may have removed the fail state but the skill floor is still low compared to the other class. If you can't hit your GCDs because you didn't plan movement for mechanics, nothing has changed. New players will still drop this job after some time if they require more accessibility because SMN is still significantly easier.

All this change did was remove a large amount of engagement from the job mechanics and slightly lower the skill ceiling. Players who try new BLM are still not gonna plan their movements, they are still not gonna stack Xeno for burst, they most likely will still clip GCDs in order to weave, and interrupt casts from mechanics.

And then you still have the "problem" of transpose lines being prominent, with Firestarter AF1 and Tpose swift blizzard 3 netting 260 something potency per cycle. Not to mention Firestarter without the need to refresh AF is actually a loss and a new player using it not for movement or Tpose Af1 will lose even more damage. Since the need to refresh timer with firestarter does not exist this ability is now just a noob trap.

These changes are inherently poorly planned and miss the mark on who and why people play this job currently, and how to bridge the gap between lowest to highest skill gaps.

[Supersnow845]

Answer me this. Who “determines” the “cool” or “iconic” jobs that are unable to be gated by anything. We all have different opinions on what constitutes a “cool” aesthetic and it’s not even like we can point to old FF jobs for this given RDM is as old and iconic as WHM and BLM but you deride it as the “tacky rapier rose class”

Furthering this question if the community somehow came to a conclusion on day one iconic job per role that was not allowed to have any entry barriers then are the other jobs fair game? I mean you deride SMN as an uncool job yet you praised when it got simplified. Can I have old SMN back because it’s not a cool job? Can we make PCT gigabrain? Can I have 6 dots back on SCH?

Because right now your opinion seems to be “BLM has to be easy because it’s iconic and cool………but uncool jobs have to be easy as well because…….”

If every job had to be easy because difficulty should be on the encounter design or some such why even bother arguing about cool or uncool jobs when the concept is subjective anyway

[Carighan]

I can't speak to you and your friends' experiences, but I feel like unless a player was trying to force themselves to optimize while they're still learning, BLM then shouldn't have felt very different from BLM now for a new player.

Isn't it more the opposite? To an experienced player, nothing changes? They would never have dropped the timer anyways, not even close, so to them the change had 0 factual impact.

To a newer player, those would have frequently dropped their timer and/or failed to achieve a Flare Star, and that's now changed. Someone who knows the job would never let that happen to them so they play ~as before.

[PyurBlue]

Everyone who has access to this game has access to the internet and most people look up job guides or youtube videos when trying to learn a new job. They see how complex BLM is, and are put off because they know they're not doing all that.

To even recognize that BLM is more complex than other jobs, which I wouldn't say has been universally true, would take some amount of experience with the game. Any optimization guide has a high chance of surprising new players. I chose BLM as a player completely new and blind to this game and never felt overwhelmed. The job eventually became my comfort job because I got used to how it worked through experience alone. Later on when I began to see higher level play it was the other job guides that confused me. BLM's reputation probably does more to push players away than its actual difficulty.

Isn't it more the opposite? To an experienced player, nothing changes? They would never have dropped the timer anyways, not even close, so to them the change had 0 factual impact.

To a newer player, those would have frequently dropped their timer and/or failed to achieve a Flare Star, and that's now changed. Someone who knows the job would never let that happen to them so they play ~as before.

Even if you never dropped the timer, you still had to pay attention to it. Before if you noticed Polyglot was close to cap while you were early in fire phase you'd need to work out if you had time to cast Xenoglossy/Foul before Paradox for example, or you'd been managing when you're using Poly throughout your rotation. Now you can just stop everything and use as many Polyglots as you want, and fit in a Thunder refresh, and there is no penalty. Sure in both cases there is no loss of Enochian, but there is a difference in the management going on in the player's head. You also had to anticipate when you wanted to use Triple for movement over DPS. The vast majority of the time you'd go for DPS, but at least there was a decision to make in some cases. I feel like now I'm using Triplecast more out of habit than anything else. The only change I don't mind is permanent proc buff because it sort of takes Thunder back to being a normal spell instead of an ability locked behind a weird availability window.

A new player would likely drop the timer if trying to play optimally, but the point is that they don't have to. Even BLM guides will point out that you can use procs and your abilities for movement over DPS optimization if you have to. BLM had a forgiving refresh rotation of F4 > F4 > Para > F4 > F4 > F3 > F4 > F4 > Desp > FS, and that's still assuming the player will feed the need to get in 6 Fire IV because I'm sure we've all seen players that don't utilize every button for one reason or another. Healers that use their slow AoE HoT to heal instead of their dozen's of instant abilities, tanks that don't use cooldowns or saving them for a boss and use them all at once, melee DPS that move to the very edge of the arena to spam their ranged attack because of an AoE, or forget positionals, or freestyle combos. I really don't think BLM was special in the sense of accessibility.

[AvoSturmfaust]

As I mentioned before, people who struggled to play BLM before are still going to struggle with BLM now. They may have removed the fail state but the skill floor is still low compared to the other class. If you can't hit your GCDs because you didn't plan movement for mechanics, nothing has changed. New players will still drop this job after some time if they require more accessibility because SMN is still significantly easier.

All this change did was remove a large amount of engagement from the job mechanics and slightly lower the skill ceiling. Players who try new BLM are still not gonna plan their movements, they are still not gonna stack Xeno for burst, they most likely will still clip GCDs in order to weave, and interrupt casts from mechanics.

And then you still have the "problem" of transpose lines being prominent, with Firestarter AF1 and Tpose swift blizzard 3 netting 260 something potency per cycle. Not to mention Firestarter without the need to refresh AF is actually a loss and a new player using it not for movement or Tpose Af1 will lose even more damage. Since the need to refresh timer with firestarter does not exist this ability is now just a noob trap.

These changes are inherently poorly planned and miss the mark on who and why people play this job currently, and how to bridge the gap between lowest to highest skill gaps.

Ofc there is a huge difference, if i dont hit my gcd and run and everything is good after or if i dont hit my gcd run and dropp enochian which is a way heavier dps loss then just not casting for 1 sec or 2

[Aysin]

Ofc there is a huge difference, if i dont hit my gcd and run and everything is good after or if i dont hit my gcd run and dropp enochian which is a way heavier dps loss then just not casting for 1 sec or 2

So what's your point? That teaching you objectively bad habits such as not casting at all in a game that entirely hinges your best damage on rolling your GCD? By not providing you a fail state the pressure to roll your GCD being eliminated teaches bad habits and will worsen new players performance? Or is that the goal? Get a handful of people who think they can, find out that no they still cannot play BLM well and will be forced off to the easier more performative jobs is a good thing?

[Carighan]

So what's your point? That teaching you objectively bad habits such as not casting at all in a game that entirely hinges your best damage on rolling your GCD? By not providing you a fail state the pressure to roll your GCD being eliminated teaches bad habits and will worsen new players performance? Or is that the goal? Get a handful of people who think they can, find out that no they still cannot play BLM well and will be forced off to the easier more performative jobs is a good thing?

Trying to be positive about it, I would say that it's understandable the devs didn't want to triple-penalize BLMs (not ABCing, wiping your group and dropping Enochian) compared to everyone else's double-penalizing.

Which I can kiiiiindaaaa agree with, although of course I'd have changed BLM entirely different than what they did now.