State of Machinist 7.2

[Valence]

While I'm not a machinist main, walking casts sound like an absolute nightmare in PvE.

The main problem with walking casts in XIV is that you can't cancel them which takes away the control you have over your own movement. Now this isn't a problem in pvp because you can just not use your filler if you know you will need to be mobile, since pvp is usually more about setting up and coordinating short bursts of high damage to secure a kill anyway.
PvE on the other hand doesn't work like that, you can't just not use your filler for an extended period.

I'd rather have the old HW caster machinist back than walking casts.

It's also a nightmare in pvp that more often than not makes you shoot yourself in the foot by making you essentially immobile (movement being slowed down is almost identical to not being able to move), and those casts are also very hard to cancel: fast enough to complete even when spamming escape and not fast enough to actually root you into doing anything else.
I don't know why people continue to defend that abomination. It just looks cool, that's about it.

Now then, I'll agree however that having walked casts on tools like Drill, etc, much like Sam has casts on Iajutsus? I'm totally fine with this, and it could be cool for tactile flavor to make those tools feel heavier and more satisfying to use, but on the filler? Hell no.

Also, rphys are not casters, else just include them into the caster role and be done with it. After all normal casters are slowly losing cast times as well so...whatever I guess.

[Carighan]

I mean on the one hand we ask for failure states and skill expression (Black Mage discussions), but then we don't even want walking casts where you commit to the button you've pressed?

[Serenaya]

Another one to the pile of threads to be swiftly ignored by SE because their own agenda and neglect for this job knows no bounds it seems! I think the funniest part is that literally everyone that knows MCH, plays it or sees the problems with player perception of it, is in agreement. I never see any pushback from anyone so it's clear everyone's in unison (for once) about something. And yet still... we have to scream from the rooftops. I've lost count of the years it's been going on for.

[Valence]

I mean on the one hand we ask for failure states and skill expression (Black Mage discussions), but then we don't even want walking casts where you commit to the button you've pressed?

Because that's caster gameplay. And they do suck in pvp, why would it be different in pve? Normal casts work better.
And then what, we also give walking casts to Dancer too?
There is a ton of other things that could bring failure states and skill expression into rphys, yet people choose to literally bring caster gameplay into it? Why? Are we so brainwashed by the current DDR model that it's the only thing that people can think of?

[mallleable]

DNC, and by extension NIN already have 'caster mechanics.' DNC dance steps, and NIN Mudras ask you to do a series of zero damage 'do nothing' steps in exchange for burst damage -- kinda like PCT's Motif, and Muse system that asks you to take a 'do nothing' action in exchange for burst damage. I don't think, and I don't think they think that DNC should have walking casts as evidenced by DNC not having them in PVP unlike the rest of the phys ranged. DNC (and GNB) do have walking channeled abilities, which yes please add this mechanic to PVE as well -- imagine being able to move while using Flamethrower.

[Absurdity]

I mean on the one hand we ask for failure states and skill expression (Black Mage discussions), but then we don't even want walking casts where you commit to the button you've pressed?

I think it's pretty obvious why walking casts on filler, like in pvp, aren't good as added "commitment".
It doesn't work in PvE because there is no decision to make on whether or not to commit to it. You have to keep your GCD rolling and you have to use your filler or you will quickly fall behind in heat and battery generation, messing you up for the rest of the fight.

There isn't a situation where you can just decide to delay your "cast" of Split Shot because you know you won't be able to slowly waddle into the safe spot for the next mechanic, that option simply doesn't exist without a fundamental rework to how a vast majority of job rotations work.

DNC, and by extension NIN already have 'caster mechanics.' DNC dance steps, and NIN Mudras ask you to do a series of zero damage 'do nothing' steps in exchange for burst damage -- kinda like PCT's Motif, and Muse system that asks you to take a 'do nothing' action in exchange for burst damage. I don't think, and I don't think they think that DNC should have walking casts as evidenced by DNC not having them in PVP unlike the rest of the phys ranged. DNC (and GNB) do have walking channeled abilities, which yes please add this mechanic to PVE as well -- imagine being able to move while using Flamethrower.

There is a major difference between Dancer's steps, Ninja's Mudras and Picto's Motifs compared to Machinist's walking casts.

While the first two also can't be readily cancelled they do not limit your movement and consequent ability to not fail the increasingly frequent mechanics spam.
Picto's Motifs on the other hand have what Machinist would be lacking, the freedom to wait until you find a window to commit to the cast safely.

[Valence]

DNC, and by extension NIN already have 'caster mechanics.' DNC dance steps, and NIN Mudras ask you to do a series of zero damage 'do nothing' steps in exchange for burst damage -- kinda like PCT's Motif, and Muse system that asks you to take a 'do nothing' action in exchange for burst damage. I don't think, and I don't think they think that DNC should have walking casts as evidenced by DNC not having them in PVP unlike the rest of the phys ranged. DNC (and GNB) do have walking channeled abilities, which yes please add this mechanic to PVE as well -- imagine being able to move while using Flamethrower.

I'm sorry but I'll need an explanation how pressing multiple buttons in succession while being able to move freely, with no channeled timer, is even akin to casting? Dance steps and Ninjutsu mudra sequences are casting how exactly? I'd have agreed on TCJ but they changed it so the Ninja can move freely now.. I don't think we can construe casting as doing actions that do no damage to prep for higher damage, else what? Reassemble is casting? Life Surge is casting? Raging Strikes is casting? Or do you mean just a combo sequence is casting?
The only casting button rphys currently has is Flamethrower.

And yes, I'd love to actually have Honing Dance in pve. That's a good channeled ability, it's definitely close enough to casting to be part of caster gameplay, just inverted as you do commit to it instead of being able to cancel it, but it's also not on the filler and has a lot of flavor so I'm all for it.

[mallleable]

I'm sorry but I'll need an explanation how pressing multiple buttons in succession while being able to move freely, with no channeled timer, is even akin to casting? Dance steps and Ninjutsu mudra sequences are casting how exactly? I'd have agreed on TCJ but they changed it so the Ninja can move freely now.. I don't think we can construe casting as doing actions that do no damage to prep for higher damage, else what? Reassemble is casting? Life Surge is casting? Raging Strikes is casting? Or do you mean just a combo sequence is casting?
The only casting button rphys currently has is Flamethrower.

And yes, I'd love to actually have Honing Dance in pve. That's a good channeled ability, it's definitely close enough to casting to be part of caster gameplay, just inverted as you do commit to it instead of being able to cancel it, but it's also not on the filler and has a lot of flavor so I'm all for it.

It's the downtime. Casting mechanics will be represented differently depending on the game type. We can imagine something like a turn based game where you have a scientist character who has an ability where they can analyze an enemy's weakness to create a chemical mixture that is strong against those weakness, but they have to skip their turn to do so, But they can accumulate more, and more data the more turns they skip so their chemical move can get stronger over time, but if they take any other actions, they lose their progress.' There can also be a mage character that also uses a similar mechanic for their strongest spell. There is no movement in combat as it is not a relevant mechanic in this imaginary game.

Let's also imagine a first person fantasy game where fire magic is cast by holding down the right mouse click to charge it up, it fills up a meter to indicate how strong the spell will be, and when you release the right mouse button, it releases the fire ball. but you cannot do any other attacks while casting. You are free to run around at full speed while casting fire magic, but ice magic is cast using a similar process, but your movement speed is slowed while casting, and earth magic requires you stand still while casting. The bow in this game also uses a similar mechanic that is like ice casting.

So to get back to FFXIV, it's the downtime that makes Mudras, and dance steps 'caster' mechanics to me. Only certain actions can be preformed while dancing, and you will get a bunny if you do any else besides your Mudras. This caster like downtime is why it is a popular suggestion to have like a chemist healer use a system like Mudras for mixing potions. Like Life Surge or Reassemble were on the GCD, then the 'casting' comparisons could be made as they would force you to take downtime for their benefits, but they don't incur downtime so they are not related to casting.

[Carighan]

I think it's pretty obvious why walking casts on filler, like in pvp, aren't good as added "commitment".
It doesn't work in PvE because there is no decision to make on whether or not to commit to it. You have to keep your GCD rolling and you have to use your filler or you will quickly fall behind in heat and battery generation, messing you up for the rest of the fight.

Eh, that's no difference than hardcasting.

The skill is in prepositioning so the time between casts is enough to slide-move into position for the next mech, and/or pacing your instant-cast tools to be available and last you through extended movement situations.

/shrug

It's entirely normal to do?

[Absurdity]

Eh, that's no difference than hardcasting.

The skill is in prepositioning so the time between casts is enough to slide-move into position for the next mech, and/or pacing your instant-cast tools to be available and last you through extended movement situations.

/shrug

It's entirely normal to do?

Alright, I don't know how often I'm supposed to rephrase why it doesn't work.

Go into the game, switch to machinist, put your walk button on a hotkey, go into a dawntrail fight (normal raids would probably be ideal) and switch to walking speed every time you do your Split Shot-> Slug Shot-> Clean Shot filler combo, importance on actually trying to do a proper rotation and not just sitting on your filler for like 5 seconds doing nothing.

Then come back and tell me how well that worked.

It isn't anything like hardcasting. There is no period of no movement transitioning into normal speed and Machinist isn't as freeform as BLM, RDM or Picto where you can save instant casts for movement heavy phases.