Mao has question for everyones about DDR-style boss fights.

[NaoSen]

I do really like how DT's raids are however I would prefer if the shift was more balanced to giving jobs things to do and slowing the fight down.

I remember reading a forum post the other day that was a few years old discussing tank and whm enmity management since WHM could pull threat etc (Pre-SHB) and thought how it would be nice to have a job with more things to do (not to be confused with buttons to press) and fights to have a vibing atmosphere but put the responsibility on the jobs not the fight co-ordination.

[Ceridwenae]

Mao has much sympathies for Kheeziah. Mao has friend whats also has difficulties dealings with graphics in FFXIV. Mao hopings Kheeziah has much funs with ESO!

Thank you, Mao. I will, for sure, have fun! <3

[AllenThyl]

Mao said "randomy". As in feels little bits like random things whats players interact with other than just has to be in specific spot at right time. Is not actually random though.

Correct, it's not. That's the whole point.

Let's take your example of Aurum Vale's final boss, Miser's Mistress. All attacks happen at a scriped time, from the aoe that inflicts everyone with the debuff, to the single target spell that afflicts a single person with the debuff, to the tankbusters, to the add spawns. The morbol fruits are in fixed positions and they have fixed respawn timers after they are used. The only random element in this fight, is the target of the single target spell. Generally, especially with undergeared sprouts, the DF solution is to simply use a fruit with 2 stacks. However, this fight could also be completely DDRed with fixed positions and fixed usage of fruits, and fight would be cleared reliably by that strategy every single time.

The reason this fight is YOLO'd in duty finder groups, is because there is no need to have a proper strategy here. There is barely any failure state for this fight, and the only real mechanic going on is the debuff. Why? Because it's content for beginners, meant to teach them to watch their own debuffs. However, surely, after 4 expansions and hundreds of hours worth of mandatory combat content, a game designer can expect for people to have learned at least something along the way?

This is precisely why I asked for an example, because it's the whole "Nael phase is truly random" situation all over again. You CAN clear UCoB thinking that the Nael phase is random, but that doesn't mean that it actually IS random. By never bothering to actively learn fight patterns, every fight will always feel completely new and random. But discussions about fight design of this game need to be grounded in the fight design of THIS game, and not in a fantasy or nostalgia version of it, where things are "remembered" different than they actually were. Because if the devs get feedback along the lines of "make the fights more random like older fights", and then they look into the code that controls said old fights, just to see that there is literally no difference in randomness, what are they even supposed to do with that feedback?

[Kazuke_Miso]

At some point you really have to wonder if we're seeing a Renathras reborn.

Or maybe it's a Lala thing.

[AmiableApkallu]

Mao been thinkings. Is well known to lots peoples that Mao nots like DDR-style boss fights. Now Mao knows DDR-style boss fights always been in game since beginnings. DDR-style boss fights back in ARR and HW, nots as fast as thems is in EW and DT though. Also, old boss fights sometimes has some more randomy elements in thems. Mao likes thems old fights buts hates all the new fights. Mao also believings newer boss fights whats gettings faster and faster is responsible for jobs being made more and more mobiles and samey.

From what I've seen, encounter design (dungeons, trials, raids) has always been based on some relatively fixed, predictable script (maybe with a small number of variations), and resolving mechanics has always had some element of preferring to stand in one spot or do one thing over standing in some other spot and doing some other thing. The question is how well the game convinces us to suspend our disbelief or otherwise distract us from that basic reality.

Take a look at dungeons. Two packs, wall, two packs, boss. Repeat two more times. This structure has no thematic connection to any dungeon, ever. It's always the same mobs, in the same groupings, separated by walls that exist for no reason other than to stop your progress. It's completely artificial, and thus unsatisfying.

It's that same artificialness that often plagues trials and raids. From Patch 7.2:

• Recollection (MSQ trial): We're fighting someone praised for their skill with a blade, but we spend most of the fight dodging ye olde magic attacks
• M5 (raid series): An encounter chock full of the precisely timed and orchestrated moves that many people dislike. On the other hand, thematically, it's a literal dance party, a dance off. The entire point is to move to someone else's tune and keep up. "DDR" works really well here.
• M6: The encounter is little more than dodge the AoE, stack correctly, and spread, but the presentation beautifully captures the whimsy of a graffit-artist-pictomancer. The only thing I find lacking is the number of variations to the mechanics -- more whimsy, please.
• M7: Aside from the gaze mechanic, this is yet another bog standard set of dodges, but the setting and pacing capture the point we're at in the raid story. That said, the distances you have to run across seem in excess of what the story requires.
• M8: Sadly, the design feels to me like it gave up entirely on thematic cohesion. The arena is your standard circle floating in the sky because The mechanics exist for the sake of existing

So, speed of mechanics and running all over the place isn't, by itself, a problem so long as they're thematically tied to the encounter. FFXIV's problem is that these are more often used as arbitrary difficulty sliders, and if you use the same settings for every boss, well, it follows that every job needs to bend to those settings.

[Eraden]

Correct, it's not. That's the whole point.

Let's take your example of Aurum Vale's final boss, Miser's Mistress. All attacks happen at a scriped time, from the aoe that inflicts everyone with the debuff, to the single target spell that afflicts a single person with the debuff, to the tankbusters, to the add spawns. The morbol fruits are in fixed positions and they have fixed respawn timers after they are used. The only random element in this fight, is the target of the single target spell. Generally, especially with undergeared sprouts, the DF solution is to simply use a fruit with 2 stacks. However, this fight could also be completely DDRed with fixed positions and fixed usage of fruits, and fight would be cleared reliably by that strategy every single time.

The reason this fight is YOLO'd in duty finder groups, is because there is no need to have a proper strategy here. There is barely any failure state for this fight, and the only real mechanic going on is the debuff. Why? Because it's content for beginners, meant to teach them to watch their own debuffs. However, surely, after 4 expansions and hundreds of hours worth of mandatory combat content, a game designer can expect for people to have learned at least something along the way?

This is precisely why I asked for an example, because it's the whole "Nael phase is truly random" situation all over again. You CAN clear UCoB thinking that the Nael phase is random, but that doesn't mean that it actually IS random. By never bothering to actively learn fight patterns, every fight will always feel completely new and random. But discussions about fight design of this game need to be grounded in the fight design of THIS game, and not in a fantasy or nostalgia version of it, where things are "remembered" different than they actually were. Because if the devs get feedback along the lines of "make the fights more random like older fights", and then they look into the code that controls said old fights, just to see that there is literally no difference in randomness, what are they even supposed to do with that feedback?

There IS randomness in that fight though. It arises from choices made by players. Fight allows for some wiggle room. Is little or no tolerance for that in current fights. Is either do fights in particular way or group wipes. Is not quit so extreme as this in dungeons buts is quite pronounced in savage fights. Is even getting to point where is becomings driving force behind job design. Is no longer what Mao sees as RPG. Is now more like just arcade game. If is what players want though, then maybe that the way game should go. Mao already movings on.

[Valence]

Mao said "randomy". As in feels little bits like random things whats players interact with other than just has to be in specific spot at right time. Is not actually random though. At least Mao pretty sure is not random. Mao uses final fight in Aurum Vale (Mao likes Aurum Vale) as example. Is fairly complex (at least in Mao opinion) fight where is importants to cleanse debuff. This means choosing when to eat fruit and where to be to gets it. Fruits seem to spawn in random spots but Mao thinkings if actually watch where fruits spawn, is not actually random. What IS random though is how each player decides to interact with this. Some might try go for fruits early on. Some might try wait for little bits. Is little bits more complex than just simple dance. For Healers this makes fights feel randomy because thems always has to be on guard in case is player whats wait too long. This why Mao likes old fights more. Mao would like see actual random elements added to new fights to make fights more interestings and has replay value. Is not need to make fights completely random. Just add little bits.

There is something that actually played no small role in randomness back before Stormblood, and that is only found on a smaller scale currently on Ultimates due to phase transitions: the mechanical script of bosses used to be HP based and not fully time based only. This meant that if your party reached a specific HP threshold, the boss would start a new series of mechanics earlier. It introduced some issues like totally skipping a mechanic halfway through but this was mostly notable in complete overgear or unsync scenari, which don't really matter in terms of full fight experience anyway. Still, SE decided to do away with it because 1) it served their agenda of now allowing players agency whatsoever and limiting skill play and 2) fixed the aforementioned unsync issues.

Combined with the pseudo random phases that we sometimes get in fights like Guardian (the most complex up to date with this), or P8S doorboss, this can truly shake things up and make runs feel more different from each other. SE also does have the tech to let mechanics run their course before switching to something tied to a HP threshold, as shown in the recent M4 Arcadion fight, where the boss below 15-20% HP or something starts to cast the soft enrage cannon shot that never ends: if the boss is still in the middle of a wide mechanic, it doesn't stop it but goes to its end before switching to the threshold mechanic (soft enrage), which allows for a smoother and more natural transition.

[ovIm]

There is something that actually played no small role in randomness back before Stormblood, and that is only found on a smaller scale currently on Ultimates due to phase transitions: the mechanical script of bosses used to be HP based and not fully time based only.

That is the big thing that, imho, that makes the current encounters boring and tedious and samey compared to older ones - no matter how players act/perform, the boss will always stick to its script, without deviation. It makes encounters incredible static, and stiffles player agency imho. Possible strategies like holding a burst to make a different phase pass more quickly, or punishments like having to adjust and possibly do a mechanic one additional time because someone died which causes raid DPS to take a little bit of a tumble are completely out of the question with the current design paradigm. Look at Coil T2 and how different groups chose different paths because of party composition and player skill. The game had room for that. The game would still have room for that, were CS3 not chosing to completely ignore lessons of the past.

This game has become very much on rails in every possible way - gear, boss fight strategies, class rotations. Moments where a player can actually make a meaningful decision (no matter how small), like what Mao said about eating a morbol fruit when it suits your own timeline/rotation instead of when the fight exactly mandates it, are removed more and more. Also, mechanics were less strict because class gameplay was a bit more in depth. Just look at how often CS3 has removed some bit of class gameplay without any replacement.


So no, the game has not always been like it is now, don't let people gaslight you into thinking otherwise - if you were around back during ARR / Heavensward, you'd know that.

[Valence]

From what I've seen, encounter design (dungeons, trials, raids) has always been based on some relatively fixed, predictable script (maybe with a small number of variations), and resolving mechanics has always had some element of preferring to stand in one spot or do one thing over standing in some other spot and doing some other thing.

I mean then if you dumb it down like this then even in actual DnD it can apply too. But that's not the point of the system because there is a gigantic difference between positioning and running everywhere like frogs in a blender.

- Qarn: bee adds, they do have final sting. No DDR required for those even if the rest of the boss does with doom platforms.
- Cutter's Cry: it's been bruteforced for ages now since late HW, but the myrmidon queen's adds have interesting mechanics to stun, or adds to burn down before they do. No DDR beyond someone baiting the adds.
- Sirius: when to begin, all the bosses have non DDR mechanics that are actually interesting. First boss has corruption bombs applying from adds on AOE (players need to not hug each other), second boss has the party to carefully balance not destroying eggs to enrage stack the boss too much but also kill newborn adds not to get overwhelmed (but enraging the boss), which acts as a soft enrage, third boss has some heal checks to cure confused from players but the boss also debuffs healing to counter it. Stellar dungeon design with literally no DDR.
- Haukke Manor hard: Halicarnassus is a chef's kiss design, no DDR, all is tied to the adds that the boss consumes and what it means for the party (sentry makes the boss stun immune, handmaidens buff her, bloodraid casts are tied to HP consumed, and the enrage is hilarious as she consumes party members which kills everyone.
- Tam Tara hard: that first boss is still hilarious to this day and wipes parties that try to bruteforce it but don't have the skills to do it.

I could continue for ages, HW also has a decent amount of this. I am listing everything that's not considered a "whacky mechanic" like you know, making the ape consume bananas, etc. You'll also of course notice that some dungeons have a lot more DDR than others (for example, Stone Vigil is almost exclusively DDR, even in its older version), but those are generally a lot less hectic and all over the place, which plays into the change in scale and frequency we have those days.

[Kazuke_Miso]

There is something that actually played no small role in randomness back before Stormblood, and that is only found on a smaller scale currently on Ultimates due to phase transitions: the mechanical script of bosses used to be HP based and not fully time based only. This meant that if your party reached a specific HP threshold, the boss would start a new series of mechanics earlier. It introduced some issues like totally skipping a mechanic halfway through but this was mostly notable in complete overgear or unsync scenari, which don't really matter in terms of full fight experience anyway. Still, SE decided to do away with it because 1) it served their agenda of now allowing players agency whatsoever and limiting skill play and 2) fixed the aforementioned unsync issues.

Combined with the pseudo random phases that we sometimes get in fights like Guardian (the most complex up to date with this), or P8S doorboss, this can truly shake things up and make runs feel more different from each other. SE also does have the tech to let mechanics run their course before switching to something tied to a HP threshold, as shown in the recent M4 Arcadion fight, where the boss below 15-20% HP or something starts to cast the soft enrage cannon shot that never ends: if the boss is still in the middle of a wide mechanic, it doesn't stop it but goes to its end before switching to the threshold mechanic (soft enrage), which allows for a smoother and more natural transition.

I can never fathom why they just funnel themselves down one path (I mean I could, it's because ultra-scripted DDR fights are very cheap to produce on the programming level). It's like these fight designers don't care about being creative and going the extra mile to squeeze every ingenious idea they can out of the, frankly, horrible engine. They seemed to have tried to do that in HW and SB.

Ultimately it probably just boils down to CBU3 having too many artists and too few programmers. No offense to the artists, but this is still a video game at the end of the day, and you need people scripting those mechanics. SE as a whole seems to have, for a long time now, focused on style over substance, ever since FF10.