Mao has question for everyones about DDR-style boss fights.

[Collin_Sky]

why do you type like this

[DynnDiablos]

why do you type like this

It is quirky but harmless. Mao is a sweet soul on here. It doesn't bother me they refer to themselves in third person.

[Kazuke_Miso]

Now Mao knows DDR-style boss fights always been in game since beginnings.

But they have always tried to do more than DDR:

Back in Stormblood there was a Savage raid called O8S.

One of the mechanics was called Forsaken.

Forsaken 1 was probably the most interesting heal check they've ever put into this game and it was more than just walking to the correct spot.

Kefka starts by casting Heartless Archangel. This applies a debuff called Incurable that has something like...

- A 5 second incurable debuff if you are at max HP when Heartless Archangel lands.
- A 12 second incurable debuff if you are not at max HP when Heartless Archangel lands.

(Numbers could be wrong it's been like 7 years since I did that fight)

Incurable means any form of healing and shielding will not apply while you have the debuff.

Now Heartless Archangel also drops everyone down to 1 HP. So you're at 1 HP *and* you also cannot receive any heal? And right after HA the DPS also needs to soak damage immediately?

The solution was elegant: you have to pre-shield them enough so that they can survive some hits during Incurable. And 3 seconds after Incurable drops off, they also need to soak damage from the Kefka heads. That requires them to be healed right after Incurable. So timing is important here, where the healers have to let the heal land right as Incurable falls off, and heal enough in a short time so that the DPS can do their job. The DPS also has to pay attention to their health and pop the Kefka heads only when they are ready to soak a hit. The tankbusters will then happen, so after taking care of the DPS, the healers need to take care of healing the tank. Back then we didn't have OP heals like Macrocosmos, so it actually required multiple abilities and GCD healing. Knowing to choose the right heal - AoE or single target actually mattered for this mechanic.

And Heartless Archangel is then casted again in like 40 seconds or something, after a gauntlet of damage, tankbusters, and heavy-hitting raidwides. In fact I think it happened like 7 seconds after an Ultima, so you have to get everyone to max HP right after a very heavy-hitting raidwide.

Back then healers actually had to use Helios and Medica. The world top logs had 20+ casts of Aspected Benefic, Aspected Helios, and Helios.

There are several more examples like the CC in A6S (which had an encore in E8S), the kiting in T7S, etc....

O8S Forsaken 1

https://youtu.be/obJEyZpb1Vg?si=l2szDJcmvL6E3Iwg&t=70

A6S CC phase: https://youtu.be/04yIFeihEv0?si=XIW5Ee0BGXatP4sb&t=166

E8S add phase: https://youtu.be/ON7D3uqnjSw?si=Iavbm9sSshF2pgRB&t=246

T7: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_uFmPaPedE

Anyone telling you that this game has always just been DDR is LYING AND DECEIVING YOU.

As long as you keep eating up they will serve you more of the same. Some people who are out of real-life clout participation by default are happy to spend another 50 hrs of their one life learning a pattern to get the next meaningless glowing stick in a video game.

Honestly, I used to care about clearing Ultimates and getting respectable logs. But after clearing DSR I just can't do it anymore. It's so dreadfully boring, and the fact that people praise DSR as the best fight, it made me realize that there's no hope for this game moving forward because the current slate of players literally love eating this slop. If people want challenging gameplay that isn't just rehearsing the same dance again and again in front of your theater director, go play other games. Seriously. If you want strategic skill, modded XCOM provides that in spades and is far harder. If you want quick reaction, play any FPS. For action frenzy, go play Diablo or a Diablo clone. Even for "dance" type games, Soulslikes do it far better than FF14 (you are memorizing the boss's moves after all in Souls).

FF14 used to fill the niche, along with other MMOs, to reward cooperative play and learning how to play as a team. That doesn't exist anymore since everything is now DDR fights where one player failing the dance means everyone dies with no chance of recovery. There are no more organic moments in raids where you pull off a sick recovery because it's just a binary "did you do the dance?!? if yes -> continue; if no -> everyone dies". The only thing resembling that these days is going on tank and shielding someone with a vuln right before a raidwide. That's it LOL.

[Khutulun]

I find the DDR amusing to play around and watch everyone try to parse into a map of what they're supposed to be doing. That said, the experiences do feel diminished compared to their possibility due to being too adherent to a basic formula. For how late in the adventure we are, SE could stand to be a lot more experimental (rather than just focusing on the speed of attacks). Feels like they were a lot more experimental in ARR, HWS, and STB... then just threw it out for a basic pattern from SHB onwards.

With the second of the two new fights specifically, I wish they played around more with the boss changing its arena. Could've done more to throw in unique adds or interactable objects/entities (I thought when I was thrown into the desert and I got that heat debuff there was going to be some sort of water/hydration mechanic, but no just orange circles to dodge). I'd argue that in one/two expacs, if CBU3 cleans up their act, they should rework this fight in particular to heavily remove traces of the usual battle formula and instead really make use of the reality changing art gimmick.

Back to the DDR itself, like I started with: I personally find it amusing. Does feel like a crutch though, as if CBU3 implicitly understands that encounters are only vaguely "fun" right now if you can be distracted from your completely dull and lifeless job kits- which are all combinations of one of four identities and the same 4/5 shared mechanics (across all jobs).

[Jeeqbit]

I do not mind these DDR fights at all. So for me personally, I find all the High-End duties being produced at the moment a fun experience. All the people I meet in party finder love these fights, and are enjoying them, and having tons of fun, in what seems a big contrast from the forums. Their excitement and enthusiasm is infectious so we all have fun.

Do I require the fights to be this way? No.

All I want is duties to not be what the normal versions are... if everything was Extreme difficulty, like say Bismarck Extreme, Hades Extreme, SoS Extreme or EW EX1... I would be fine with it.

I like it when you can PUG it and it's not annoying to do so. Extreme is exactly that. You can join a blind prog of it and actually clear, but it isn't as stupid easy as normal version, where you could put a blindfold on and still clear it. That's literally all I want you know? A fulfilling fight. Going further and making like Ultimates isn't required in an MMORPG imo, but it's what people kept demanding when they told SE that Savage was too easy, so...

Although the jobs are adjusted to the content design, I do believe a large part of it is "reducing stress" for new/returning players as well. I remember Koji once saying (translating for Yoshi-P many years ago), in reponse to complaints content was easy, that: "easy" is good, for us

As in statistically.

[Kandraxx]

But they have always tried to do more than DDR:



O8S Forsaken 1

https://youtu.be/obJEyZpb1Vg?si=l2szDJcmvL6E3Iwg&t=70

A6S CC phase: https://youtu.be/04yIFeihEv0?si=XIW5Ee0BGXatP4sb&t=166

E8S add phase: https://youtu.be/ON7D3uqnjSw?si=Iavbm9sSshF2pgRB&t=246

T7: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_uFmPaPedE

Anyone telling you that this game has always just been DDR is LYING AND DECEIVING YOU.



Honestly, I used to care about clearing Ultimates and getting respectable logs. But after clearing DSR I just can't do it anymore. It's so dreadfully boring, and the fact that people praise DSR as the best fight, it made me realize that there's no hope for this game moving forward because the current slate of players literally love eating this slop. If people want challenging gameplay that isn't just rehearsing the same dance again and again in front of your theater director, go play other games. Seriously. If you want strategic skill, modded XCOM provides that in spades and is far harder. If you want quick reaction, play any FPS. For action frenzy, go play Diablo or a Diablo clone. Even for "dance" type games, Soulslikes do it far better than FF14 (you are memorizing the boss's moves after all in Souls).

FF14 used to fill the niche, along with other MMOs, to reward cooperative play and learning how to play as a team. That doesn't exist anymore since everything is now DDR fights where one player failing the dance means everyone dies with no chance of recovery. There are no more organic moments in raids where you pull off a sick recovery because it's just a binary "did you do the dance?!? if yes -> continue; if no -> everyone dies". The only thing resembling that these days is going on tank and shielding someone with a vuln right before a raidwide. That's it LOL.

Exactly. There's no real 'cooperative' play or synergy. They're just picking a fight that, for a solo player, would be rather unimpressive and most likely be cleared within 30 min for a Savage fight, or 90-120 min for an Ultimate. But no, now they're coming in and just x8 the whole fight. That's called inflated difficulty. It's like picking the ER Malenia fight but you're always queuing up with 7 other people and every time someone dies all die and go back to the start. That is just so incredibly cheap game design.

[Valence]

I do not mind these DDR fights at all. So for me personally, I find all the High-End duties being produced at the moment a fun experience. All the people I meet in party finder love these fights, and are enjoying them, and having tons of fun, in what seems a big contrast from the forums. Their excitement and enthusiasm is infectious so we all have fun.

Do I require the fights to be this way? No.

All I want is duties to not be what the normal versions are... if everything was Extreme difficulty, like say Bismarck Extreme, Hades Extreme, SoS Extreme or EW EX1... I would be fine with it.

I like it when you can PUG it and it's not annoying to do so. Extreme is exactly that. You can join a blind prog of it and actually clear, but it isn't as stupid easy as normal version, where you could put a blindfold on and still clear it. That's literally all I want you know? A fulfilling fight. Going further and making like Ultimates isn't required in an MMORPG imo, but it's what people kept demanding when they told SE that Savage was too easy, so...

Although the jobs are adjusted to the content design, I do believe a large part of it is "reducing stress" for new/returning players as well. I remember Koji once saying (translating for Yoshi-P many years ago), in reponse to complaints content was easy, that: "easy" is good, for us

As in statistically.

You want us to spend... at least a hour or two to clear a single NM story duty?

Also I don't want hardcore/difficult. This is another debate. I want engaging. Something easy and chill can perfectly be engaging if it gives you the tools to have fun with it.

[Jeeqbit]

You want us to spend... at least a hour or two to clear a single NM story duty?

That might not be so bad. I get Extremes in mentor roulette and sometimes it takes an hour to help the sprouts clear. And you know what? It feels a whole lot more fulfilling than when I help them clear the normal versions in trial roulette, where I could literally button mash and still clear.

[Rithy255]

It was a bit on the nose that it's DDR now...

but I think Black mage is most fun when your fighting against the DDR, doing your best to optimise your damage around that fight I don't think job designs should come at the expense of fight designs like it has for a long time.

[Cubester]

I might not be the right person to comment on this in that I simply don't enjoy doing raids and whatnot, but I do have to say that the fights I participated in during the MSQ weren't particularly enjoyable to me and I won't do them again if not required.