BLM Changes Are Fantastic. The timers were so annoying. Thanks FFXIV team ! :)

[Wayfinder3]

Yes, SE needs to make changes based off their internal data and resources, they can take the forums into consideration but ultimately, their goal is to justify the development time spent on a job and if people are playing that job, sometimes that means the people looking for a complex experience lose out. Look at white mage, this class is not very complex at all but it’s still played so consistently in all facets of content that it satisfies the resources put into. This is in contrast to something like BLM which struggles to retain players over the years beyond its diehard fans. That’s probably why the class literally changes so many facets of its design every expansion, same with MNK, it’s always been played much less than DRG NIN and eventually the newer options also ended up being more popular, so SE changed it.

SMN is also another job that people complain about to no end but it’s numbers are always so consistently good compared to the other options that it shows the greater player base doesn’t really care how complex or how much depth the job has, if it’s fun to them, they’ll play it. Wanting these nuances is reasonable but people here need it understand it is not in the devs best interest to create a skill gap amongst their players than what already exist. Making classes more complex and difficult would just make doing content even harder. I think classes don’t need to be more complex, they need to be more rewarding and incentive understanding their mechanics. A class like SMN doesn’t have a lot of this but a job like SAM and RDM do. There are ways for them to add more to the gameplay experience but making the classes harder to engage with due to a perceived need for complexity is a recipe for frustration when players realize they can’t kill the boss cause other players aren’t playing their class right. And if SE balanced DPS checks around the average player, we’d have another wicked Thunder scenario where that fight basically had no check if they balanced fights around not optimizing class performance. So good players would be rewarded with easy DPS checks and bad players who don’t vibe with the complex rotations just get screwed. It’s just not necessary for the game to be fun and SE’s job is to make the game fun for as many people as possible. Sometimes that means people get screwed over.

[Aysin]

SMN is also another job that people complain -

I disagree, because every time a simplification change has happened it has been synonymous with an increase in power, so you can't justify simplification as a success metric when the high damage is one of the strongest factors people use to make the switch. This was true for SMN in EW, where is dealt competitive damage, it was true pre 7.2 for PCT where the damage exceeded all others, and now it's true for BLM where it sits atop the rankings. Now that SMN isn't dealing competitive damage, it is not played nearly as much despite being the simplest.

Another factor ahead of simplicity is utility, and this is why RDM (along with it doing more damage of course) who despite being a bit more complex especially this tier, still has a far higher use rate than SMN, who is on the same level as MCH (which is incredibly low on usage, output and utility). Along with NIN who's simplicity does not justify it's utility vs all other melee. There is massive historical evidence of people flocking to trends such as a fresh class or high damage which is why PCT still has a pretty high use rate, as well as BLM for current patch and of course VPR. And there is consistent evidence supporting people abandoning simple jobs if they do not offer the damage, which is the real reward the majority of people are after. You may disagree but the evidence is there.

All these changes have done for 7.2 is make BLM the flavor of the month and if the dynamic shifts, people will drop it again. It happened from the end of EW to the start of DT, it can happen again in the future. You bringing up SMN as the example is contrary to your point because it is the prime example of how the player base will abandon a class even if it is the most accessible.

I'm not saying classes need to be excessively complex here however, but small hurdles in the handling of the job's playstyle goes a long way into investing in the reward factor when playing a job. In my opinion every job should have some hurdles, as in more than 1, so that when the player overcomes these, they feel a bit accomplished especially so when it results in things like clearing fights, or high damage.

But now we have a problem of SE seeing the changes to classes with simplification as a success not understanding which factor actually plays in the use rate which misleads them into further simplifying other jobs, and now we're in a spiral of every job going on the chopping block for simplification changes in the hopes they increase play rates. SE should not make these changes in order to incentivize people to play a job, as now we're coinciding with lowering actual creative design in order to keep things in an accessible state. Setting aside the 2 new jobs, what happened to a lot of the existing jobs for the expansion update? They might have gotten 1 more action or so, most likely in the form of a transformation of an existing button.

[Supersnow845]

How is SMN a good example of this. If anything SMN is an example of this design philosophy being a futile circle. Square saw that old SMN was unpopular and they changed it fundamentally to satisfy the idea that jobs shouldn’t have significant skill gaps. And its playerbase rose………until a new option came around in PCT and SMN’s playerbase collapsed again. Now that BLM got a massive increase to its power vs its complexity SMN has gotten even less popular. So what was the point of the rework? Because SMN’s popularity collapsed back to where it was before the rework and you can argue that it wasn’t even actually SMN’s fault, rather the caster balance moving around it. RDM’s current meta position is basically the same, it did nothing and suddenly became the most popular caster as SMN and PCT crashed and burned around it because of balancing changes.

How long till BLM’s playerbase collapses again because they buff SMN because SMN is the current red hooded step child? Balancing on player numbers is a futile circle that just destroys job design for the benefit of people who don’t care about job design, they just chase the meta

And let’s say that a 7.3 buff to either SMN or PCT or both changes the play meta of the 4 casters again then what? Do we change BLM again, do we buff it again and destroy RDM’s playerbase? Like genuinely where does this type of balancing end

[Wayfinder3]

How is SMN a good example of this

Easy, because People play it anyway, they simply don't care much beyond the surface and thats the part to understand. Most players playing the game aren't as invested in job complexity and skill expression. They just want a comfort pick. So no matter how braindead the SMN class is. The job still sees tons of play

If tomorrow you take any DPS job and turn it into a singe damage button, that's competitive enough and viable, you'll have everybody flocking to it. You'll also have a gigantic uproar everywhere how it's awful, but you'll still have everybody going for it nonetheless because most players take the path of least resistance. They want their loot and their clear. That's a universal variable that you'll find both in casual and challenging content.

In challenging content you'll also have class power and meta considerations, but in casual why do you think most jobs we see are dancers and summoners? And on the healer side? White mages everywhere, followed by sages?

Exactly

[Supersnow845]

Easy, because People play it anyway, they simply don't care much beyond the surface and thats the part to understand. Most players playing the game aren't as invested in job complexity and skill expression. They just want a comfort pick. So no matter how braindead the SMN class is. The job still sees tons of play



Exactly

But it doesn’t, SMN is the least popular caster by a pretty wide margin right now

[Wayfinder3]

But it doesn’t, SMN is the least popular caster by a pretty wide margin right now

Do you have an actual metric for that and please don't show fflogs

[Supersnow845]

Do you have an actual metric for that and please don't show fflogs

Do you have an actual metric and don’t show a completely valid metric

SMN is the least popular in savage, it’s the least popular in FRU, its second least popular in juneo (surprisingly PCT is least popular) and it’s the least popular in dungeons

Like do you have a metric that disproves FFlogs

[Aysin]

Do you have an actual metric for that and please don't show fflogs

Why, may I ask is the log website not a valid resource since it is the only community driven source we actually have?

[Valence]

If tomorrow you take any DPS job and turn it into a singe damage button, that's competitive enough and viable, you'll have everybody flocking to it. You'll also have a gigantic uproar everywhere how it's awful, but you'll still have everybody going for it nonetheless because most players take the path of least resistance. They want their loot and their clear. That's a universal variable that you'll find both in casual and challenging content.

In challenging content you'll also have class power and meta considerations, but in casual why do you think most jobs we see are dancers and summoners? And on the healer side? White mages everywhere, followed by sages?

[Aysin]

If tomorrow you take any DPS job and turn it into a singe damage button, that's competitive enough and viable, you'll have everybody flocking to it. You'll also have a gigantic uproar everywhere how it's awful, but you'll still have everybody going for it nonetheless because most players take the path of least resistance. They want their loot and their clear. That's a universal variable that you'll find both in casual and challenging content.

In challenging content you'll also have class power and meta considerations, but in casual why do you think most jobs we see are dancers and summoners? And on the healer side? White mages everywhere, followed by sages?

Forgive my bluntness but I don't think they made changes based on casual content, as in fact they outright stated for savage content to have extended periods of movement was the reason they simplified Black Mage. So in the interest of consistency and understanding the direction intended by the devs, I think it's only fair to compare same types of content. In this case we're looking at savage.