We need to do something about Tanks and Outgoing Damage from Bosses

[LoganMccree]

Oh the actual trinity system, the system which the healers were actively trying to destroy during Sb and Shb. I still remember Bardam's mettle and the Burn, the times SE tried to upscale the difficulty of casual contents and made healers to heal and they actively abandoned duty especially when they saw a tank with a sprout next to their head. Believe it or not in Shb SE tried again and the healers complained again for having to heal and wall-to-wall pulls so SE gave up and toned down everything after Amaurot, they also complained about the old DRK for no self sustain and uncomfortable to heal so now every tank has sustain. Kinda surprised how the the healers are striking now.

No they did not. Don't just make things up out of your ass.

[CaptainLagbeard]

Replacing tank self-sustain with barriers is the worst idea by far, tank barriers scale off of their max hp and not from tank's cure potency, giving a tank barrier especially just by doing their rotations like the post you were replying to will make tank even better in ultimates and literally gods who can't be hurt in normal dungeons.

What if I told you a 400 potency shield doesn't mean 400% of the tanks HP?

[Sunhwapark]

the times SE tried to upscale the difficulty of casual contents and made healers to heal and they actively abandoned duty especially when they saw a tank with a sprout next to their head.

Nah, this was just done by people that didn't primarily play healer classes, things where you can't let eos/selene carry you always seem to get complaints. The actual issues healers having were tied to WHM during SB with the archaic 1.0 version of lillies they implemented and gaslit the players that the system was "fine" only to backtrack and rework them. wasting resources to fish for lily procs ? Really ? The only other thing besides that was the very heavy reliance on barrier/regen co-healers, but nowadays it has been homogenised to a state where all healers can now do a lot of regen work for free.

Believe it or not in Shb SE tried again and the healers complained again for having to heal and wall-to-wall pulls so SE gave up and toned down everything after Amaurot

You are misinformed, the other healers were *mostly* okay - almost tolerable, however AST was in the gutter during the first month of ShB release due to being so numerically under tuned that people would avoid going into roulettes with them due to them struggling so hard even with a geared tank kitchen sinking, only made worse of course if paired with a DRK, they did eventually fix it but it was on the same day that savage released, so slots were locking them out only for a little bit, but generally didn't happen often since people will generally take literally any healers they can get instead of waiting in PF for 10 hours.

they also complained about the old DRK for no self sustain and uncomfortable to heal so now every tank has sustain. Kinda surprised how the the healers are striking now.

You must only be speaking from ShB and beyond, even though having no way to self heal during drk's Walking Dead timer was a major complaint throughout the classes existence, Dark Arts + Abyssal Drain was pretty much what WAR can do today with Bloodwhetting or whatever it's called.

[CaptainLagbeard]

You must only be speaking from ShB and beyond, even though having no way to self heal during drk's Walking Dead timer was a major complaint throughout the classes existence, Dark Arts + Abyssal Drain was pretty much what WAR can do today with Bloodwhetting or whatever it's called.

Blood Price with Dark Arts + Abyssal Drain was pretty much the original Bloodwhetting... But it only worked in trash pulls as Blood Price didn't really give enough MP to freely spam with just one enemy.

[Araxes]

Bring back enrages to normal content.

No. Putting timers on content is the laziest way of making content "hard" and its THE reason we have the "everybody is a DPS" meme.

I am a Tank main and Yes, bosses need to hit harder and more AOE party stacks can prevent tanks from sustaining 30% of the fight by themselves. Harder hitting Tank busters can do that too. There was a time when a Tank buster would just Delete you if you didnt use 2 or more Defensives.
Not just bosses though, normal Mobs in dungeons too! This would also prevent DPS from pulling if they are just squatted instantly as it should be.

[CaptainLagbeard]

No. Putting timers on content is the laziest way of making content "hard" and its THE reason we have the "everybody is a DPS" meme.

Putting an enrage timer on the normal difficulty content isn't really about making it hard, it's more that it'd set a baseline skill requirement of "Do not stand in fire, fire is bad for you."... Also making it so that you need at least the majority of the party in order to finish.

[LoganMccree]

You must only be speaking from ShB and beyond,

The guy you're talking to is just making things up, they joined in ShB.

That, or they they sucked so bad that people just quit because he doesn't know how to press Rampart when there's a tankbuster. Nothing the healer can do when you just get one-shot.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

Oh no! Some bad healer ruined my day so now tank/dps needs to have their healy buttons so they can proceed without healers.

Tales as old as time.

[Rithy255]

Replacing some of it with shields isn't the worst idea...

I really don't understand why we're advocating for replacing Heals with shields, this just shifts the powercreep of the tanks into shield HP. As a Paladin it's Not the self healing that keeps me alive in AOE It's the sheer mitigation value I have, if you've played tank outside warrior you'd notice this.

a lot of you are over estimate how much self healing effects survivability and never consider how good the actual mitigation aspects of the tanks truly are. Combining Normal mitigation cooldowns with shields is also insanely strong, Guardian proves that combining a mitigation and shield is way too strong especially when tanks already got boat loads of Shielding and mitigation. Both play a part in making tanks Immortal but it's a lot of the time to do with mitigation, adding shields ontop of that would likely make you heal less then you already do.

I'll give a example on how I'd scale down tanks power levels
PLD - Remove self healing from all Magic attacks, Holy sheltron/intervention becomes a flat 20% keeping its regen as its only form of sustain outside clemency which costs damage, Reduce Guardian down to 30% and reduce its barrier to 500 potency
GNB - HOC Also a 20% Mitigation Half the Excog potency, Aurora regen back to 200 Potency, Great Nebula back to 30% and half the health gained aspect
WAR - Bloodwhetting/Nascent split, bw can target self or ally BW Mitigates damage by 15% and creates a barrier for 400 potency, nascent flash can only target self it heals you for each hit by 300 potency for 8s DOES NOT HEAL PER ENEMY. equilibrium regen removed, Damnation becomes 35% mitigation keeps its damage aspect, Remove regen, shake it off no longer regens
DRK - Shadowed Vigil, goes to 30% Reduce healing to 800 Potency.

But this would also be in addition to actually designing fights that deal higher damage to tanks, let tanks also pull more then 2 packs.

[Supersnow845]

I really don't understand why we're advocating for replacing Heals with shields, this just shifts the powercreep of the tanks into shield HP. As a Paladin it's Not the self healing that keeps me alive in AOE It's the sheer mitigation value I have, if you've played tank outside warrior you'd notice this.

a lot of you are over estimate how much self healing effects survivability and never consider how good the actual mitigation aspects of the tanks truly are. Combining Normal mitigation cooldowns with shields is also insanely strong, Guardian proves that combining a mitigation and shield is way too strong especially when tanks already got boat loads of Shielding and mitigation. Both play a part in making tanks Immortal but it's a lot of the time to do with mitigation, adding shields ontop of that would likely make you heal less then you already do.

I'll give a example on how I'd scale down tanks power levels
PLD - Remove self healing from all Magic attacks, Holy sheltron/intervention becomes a flat 20% keeping its regen as its only form of sustain outside clemency which costs damage, Reduce Guardian down to 30% and reduce its barrier to 500 potency
GNB - HOC Also a 20% Mitigation Half the Excog potency, Aurora regen back to 200 Potency, Great Nebula back to 30% and half the health gained aspect
WAR - Bloodwhetting/Nascent split, bw can target self or ally BW Mitigates damage by 15% and creates a barrier for 400 potency, nascent flash can only target self it heals you for each hit by 300 potency for 8s DOES NOT HEAL PER ENEMY. equilibrium regen removed, Damnation becomes 35% mitigation keeps its damage aspect, Remove regen, shake it off no longer regens
DRK - Shadowed Vigil, goes to 30% Reduce healing to 800 Potency.

But this would also be in addition to actually designing fights that deal higher damage to tanks, let tanks also pull more then 2 packs.

People mostly ignore the mitigation factor here because by and large ultimate and higher end savage actually do test tanks pure mitigation potential and even in more casual content mitigating damage; whether it’s needed or not; is much more in line with the tank job description than raw healing is

Tanks don’t necessarily need a nerf to their pure mitigation (though if they made it more interesting I’d take that as a net positive) but healing internally lengthens survivability often indefinitely. Even if tanks had a “reduce damage by 95% no CD” if they had no healing the boss would eventually whittle them down. However with self healing the damage they take is less than the damage they heal so their eHP is effectively infinite. That’s what leads to what OP is discussing. Pure mitigation, and to a lesser extent shields better prevent protracted casual content holdouts by tanks because they are at their core “temporary” HP, pure healing is permanent HP