We need to do something about Tanks and Outgoing Damage from Bosses

[Wilford111]

Start an enrage timer once all raising jobs are dead.

[ForsakenRoe]

Start an enrage timer once all raising jobs are dead.

That is the general gist of what I'm saying here:

For example:

Holy Sheltron - 4 stacks of 250p barrier, lasts 12s. Using another Holy Sheltron adds 4 more stacks, and refreshes the duration to 12s
Holy Spirit/Circle, Confiteor, Blade combo actions - Adds a stack of 400p barrier, lasts 9s. Adding a new stack also refreshes the duration to 9s
Divine Veil - Applies a 400p barrier to party, in addition to the '10% of PLD's HP' barrier effect. Both are added together to make one buff (buff cap problems), and lasts 30s
Guardian - The duration vs CD balance means that this isn't an issue I think
Clemency - Horrendous DPS loss as it is, so is probably ok to stay as it is

Bloodwhetting - Applies a stack of 400p of barrier (as it does now). Adds one stack of 400p barrier per enemy struck via weaponskill, lasting 12s. Adding more stacks does NOT refresh the duration
Equilibrium - Applies a barrier of 1200p, plus 5 stacks of 200p barrier, lasting 15s
Shake It Off - Applies a 300p barrier to party, in addition to the '15% of target HP' barrier effect. Both are added together to make one buff (buff cap problems), and lasts 30s. Also grants 5 stacks of 100p barrier, which also last 30s
Thrill of Battle - The healing this provides is not an issue, and removing it will cause more issues than it'd solve
Damnation - Applies 5 stacks of 200p barrier, lasting 15s

Abyssal Drain - Applies a barrier (imagine it's made of the enemy's blood) of 500p per enemy hit, lasting 15s
Carve and Spit - Applies a barrier of 500p, lasting 15s
Shadowed Vigil - Applies a barrier of 1200p, lasting 15s. If this barrier expires before being fully consumed, applies a heal equal to 50% of the remaining barrier strength.
The rest of DRK's kit is already very barrier heavy, and we see that DRK is the 'least problematic' of the Tanks when it comes to 'Tank is too self-sufficient and refuses to die even when the party is all dead'

Aurora - Applies 6 stacks of 300p of barrier, lasting 18s. Using a second charge adds another 6 stacks, and extends the duration back to 18s
Heart of Corundum - Applies a barrier of 900p, for 9s. If this barrier expires before being fully consumed, applies a heal equal to 50% of the remaining barrier strength.
Great Nebula - Same logic as Thrill, changing the 'heal' this provides would make more issues than it'd solve, and the 2min CD means it's not too problematic

With the 'enrage' being 'the tank eventually dies to the incoming chip damage dealt to their HP, because of the holes in their barrier uptime'. Just, instead of it being a static 'everyone who can res is dead, you have 2mins before auto-wipe' (which would feel hamfisted/'artificial' as a solution, for lack of a better way of describing it), it'd be 'the tanks can try to extend the fight as long as they can, and it's dependent on their skill as a player as to how much more time they can buy to try to eke out a victory', giving the control of the 'time at which the fight 'enrages'' to the player, not the devs. Player agency and all that

Either that, or make Phoenix Downs useable in combat (but they have melee range so they're still finicky to use, and they cannot be Swiftcasted so a hard res is still more preferable) so we don't have to watch Johnny WAR try to solo a new Raid a few hours after release. On an alt, I got the same thing: everyone except one guy (A WAR, who'd have thought) died to various things (myself, I died to the damage of the phase transition effect, not the 'gotcha'). The WAR then proceeded to try to solo their way through all of the second part of the fight, got to the 'third section' as it were, and promptly died to a stack marker because yeh, stack marker. Then they said in chat, and I quote, 'yeh so that's basically all the mechanics'

Brother, if anyone wanted to see the mechanics, we'd have watched a guide on YT before going in

[Reginald_Cain]

People who want all hp restoration to be solely in the healers hands are control freaks who don't understand how much worse the game would be for 99% of the community. New healers would get flamed. Dungeon wipes would be more frequent leading to more toxicity. The classic ff job fantasy of paladin would die. If healers were forced to be healers bots Noone would play the role and queue times would sky rocket. Us boomer healers players don't want to be forced to sit there filling a bar like wow. We want are kit complexity back. Cleric stance, scholar dot spread etc. Shadowbringers deleted all that and made healers what they are now because you fools wAnTeD tO hEaL more but refuse to do hard content and wonder why you don't need to. Idiots want to ruin other roles because theirs sucks and it assinine

[Supersnow845]

People who want all hp restoration to be solely in the healers hands are control freaks who don't understand how much worse the game would be for 99% of the community. New healers would get flamed. Dungeon wipes would be more frequent leading to more toxicity. The classic ff job fantasy of paladin would die. If healers were forced to be healers bots Noone would play the role and queue times would sky rocket. Us boomer healers players don't want to be forced to sit there filling a bar like wow. We want are kit complexity back. Cleric stance, scholar dot spread etc. Shadowbringers deleted all that and made healers what they are now because you fools wAnTeD tO hEaL more but refuse to do hard content and wonder why you don't need to. Idiots want to ruin other roles because theirs sucks and it assinine

How did you manage to conflate both of those issues to a group of people that doesn’t exist

Most people who want tank healing reduced also want complexity back to healers, it’s just you have to actually let healers heal to complete the fantasy. If I dropped HW SCH’s kit into the modern game and change nothing else I’d literally just be playing a caster as id have an interesting damage kit with nothing to heal. The design of the old healers has to come with compromise with the tanks because cleric stance only functions if you actually have to heal. This doesn’t mean that people want whack a mole healing, just that you actually have to heal somewhat often

The people who “just wanted to heal” are also not benefitting from current tank sustain because their fantasy of healing is being overtaken by the tanks not needing them, I don’t support sylphie healing but it’s a stretch they are getting any benefit from this design either


Regardless nobody is asking for complete and utter removal of every piece of non healer healing, people simply want that if you don’t have a healer you can’t keep yourself alive for very long. Nobody was complaining ShB DRK had too much sustain

[Reginald_Cain]

People who want all hp restoration to be solely in the healers hands are control freaks who don't understand how much worse the game would be for 99% of the community. New healers would get flamed. Dungeon wipes would be more frequent leading to more toxicity. The classic ff job fantasy of paladin would die. If healers were forced to be heal bots. No one would play the role and queue times would sky rocket. Us boomer healers players don't want to be forced to sit there filling a bar like wow. We want are kit complexity back. Cleric stance, scholar dot spread etc. Shadowbringers deleted all that and made healers what they are now because you fools wAnTeD tO hEaL more but refuse to do hard content and wonder why you don't need to. Idiots want to ruin other roles because theirs sucks and it's assinine

[Rithy255]

People who want all hp restoration to be solely in the healers hands are control freaks who don't understand how much worse the game would be for 99% of the community. New healers would get flamed. Dungeon wipes would be more frequent leading to more toxicity. The classic ff job fantasy of paladin would die. If healers were forced to be heal bots. No one would play the role and queue times would sky rocket. Us boomer healers players don't want to be forced to sit there filling a bar like wow. We want are kit complexity back. Cleric stance, scholar dot spread etc. Shadowbringers deleted all that and made healers what they are now because you fools wAnTeD tO hEaL more but refuse to do hard content and wonder why you don't need to. Idiots want to ruin other roles because theirs sucks and it's assinine

This is my issue because I do agree with some things you say. I don't think healers should have all the power, tanks should have ways to carry for bad healers vice versa.

In my standpoint it's not about taking away all healing tools from non healer jobs (although you will get people who argue this) but to tune down the general power level of tanks because they have absurdly strong mitigation and sustain kits where even minimum item level is pretty easy to get through without any gcd healing.

I don't think healers wanna be a heal bot but they also don't wanna play glare bot, they want something in-between, doing some damage and some healing, manage your healing well gets rewarded as a damage gain sort of gameplay, which I think is healthy.

As a tank main myself I do not really like feeling immortal, having a bunch of cooldowns that are overtuned really actually hurts the value of my gameplay I want to actually feel in danger as a tank, to me this comes at the cost of nerfing tanks in general.

Lastly I think its possible to give tanks some form of healing like clemency on paladin for emergency situations or for where you get a really bad/selfish healer, with the exchange of your damage, I think clemency is a well designed tool for paladins because its something you don't have to usually use but is a good fall back option if your healer is generally struggling at their job or keeping alive (though for the sake of this discussion we would likely need a soft enrage in the case of only 2 players alive so two tanks don't end up witling down a boss for 60minutes). But it's a team based game Healers should generally be working with tanks in order for a smooth run not just the tank pressing one or two cooldowns and being basically unstoppable, theirs no effort or value or decision making, healers should also have room to mess up, tanks should too the game should be designed to actually challange players even in casual content so I rather healers have room to fail, I do not get any fun out of being Immortal tank with a boring rotation.

Both roles fundamentally need to be overhauled. Both are functionally badly designed, play rates are still low because both tank and healer have become incredibly boring, why play blue slow dps or green one button dps when you can play red fun dps.

[Neoyoshi]

Bring back enrages to normal content.

Came here for this comment.

[Servebotfrank]

The amount of mits tanks have only really seems that crazy because nothing in normal content hits hard at all. I will note that the normal raids actually do put out some respectable damage with the 8 stacks and even the tankbuster at M7 actually hits pretty hard even with mit (gear creep will stop that soon though). Otherwise in dungeons there's only a few dungeons I can think of with actually kinda threatening wall to walls, like Mt. Gulg or Bardham. DT and EW didn't have any actually threatening w2w pulls. In the new dungeon I was doing a run where I did the last pull and we didn't notice that our healer was afk in the previous boss room and I wasn't in any danger of dying at all, and didn't even notice their absence, which was really silly.

About 10 pages ago I noted that Bloodwhetting really isn't anything special in extreme and up content and that still holds true to me. Warrior doesn't really stick out in the survivability department there. I actually forgot until someone pointed out to me earlier that Warrior might be the only tank that NEEDS help from the other tank to survive the phase 1 busters in FRU (assuming you're not doing a raid plan where you're invuling those, and I think most people are not invuling the first phase). You should be buddy mitting those busters anyway but a Warrior will flat out explode if you don't because the healing doesn't really do anything when he's dead. That's probably because their 40% just stacks a regen on them while Paladin gets a barrier, Dark Knight gets an Excog (and TBN just slaps), and Gunbreaker gets a max health boost and also has an excog in HoC to help even more.

I suspect the reason nothing hits super hard is because some bad healers will absolutely just hold up the entire group. There's a disturbing number of healers I've run into who just don't put up any mits for the attacks that do actually hurt, even when I did extreme 3 I ran into a ton of scholars who would just never put up barriers for the stage transition.

Anyway yeah, just have the content hit harder. Busters should actually hurt, maybe have some actually threatening autos. The lack of threatening autos makes TBN kinda weird in a lot of 8 man normal fights because it just will not pop outside of busters because the autos just don't do any damage. I'm not asking for normal mode fights to hit so hard that they require a mit plan because that would be dumb, but there should be a higher ask for tanks to actually have to use their mits properly and it will help prepare them for higher end content where in most cases it will catch them off guard how much more threatening even normal attacks are. It might even encourage DPS to use feints and addles. Earlier I suggest just having actual enrages in normal mode, which we could still do, but if they hit hard enough that a tank actually needs a healer to live long term that will probably do the job. Just my ramble.

[Valence]

There is a world of difference between mitigating the hell out of yourself or a co tank and literally healing as well as a healer can on single target.