We need to do something about Tanks and Outgoing Damage from Bosses

[Gunz_Zbestest]

Maybe the bosses need a soft damage buff that increases the longer a party member is down. People would probably complain about not being able to get through a dungeon with people dying though.

[Asako]

What part of boss damage was reduced because the player base couldn't heal it is hard to understand. We had more damage. Healers could not cope so it got reduced. Healers could not deal damage so they had their DPS buttons culled. It's really not rocket science. Yoshi looked at the stats, majority of player base are casual, so he markets the game design towards the casual as it makes him the most money.

Someone please send me the version of the game that you are all playing where these Tanks seem to be in every instance you enter. I need to see this for myself. On the normal servers it's an extremely rare occasion but apparantely on these forums it's happenning all the time. Jenova and Sagittarius, I'll need to make an alt on those servers to check them out. Must be an absolute mess.

Maybe the bosses need a soft damage buff that increases the longer a party member is down. People would probably complain about not being able to get through a dungeon with people dying though.

Tanks were complaing about stuff doing no damage for ages, but unfortunately the game is made for casual players. If they increase the damage the average player hasn't a chance and that will cost them money. We wanted more damage for years and years. We groaned when they nerfed the Steps of Faith because people couldn't clear it in ARR but looking at the community it had to happen. There was no choice in the matter, people play for the story, not for the combat, thats why we have Savage/Ultimate. Even extreme trials are pitiful now.

[Aviatorhead]

What part of boss damage was reduced because the player base couldn't heal it is hard to understand. We had more damage. Healers could not cope so it got reduced. Healers could not deal damage so they had their DPS buttons culled. It's really not rocket science. Yoshi looked at the stats, majority of player base are casual, so he markets the game design towards the casual as it makes him the most money.

I find this is a very poor excuse. Even if it is true (which I'm not even certain of, I healed back then and it wasn't hard for me, as someone who is pretty damn casual and played nothing else but smn back then) the answer to healing being hard isn't to make healing absolutely braindead boring, or, even worse, not needed at all for the majority of casual content.

You can complain that it was 'bad healers' who couldn't handle the job that got it to where it is now. But that doesn't mean we just sit here and accept the crap we've been served. The devs do this every time they make something that isn't immediately understood, and y'all throwing your hands up saying 'well I guess we're too stupid for better' doesn't help anyone. It just makes you look dumb, like you can't see a better path past the one you've been given.

I hope Yoshi can see the party chat logs or whatever, because the amount of new healers I've run into lately, saying stuff like 'why am I here/healing is boring' is way the hell too common.

[HyperiusUltima]

Tanks were complaing about stuff doing no damage for ages, but unfortunately the game is made for casual players. If they increase the damage the average player hasn't a chance and that will cost them money.

Actually no. It won't cost them subs. For hyper casuals? Possibly - but at the end of the day people have to learn somehow. Ever heard of being conditioned when it comes to fighting games? It refers to the way people are pushed into habits because they expect an outcome - and conditioning them into those habits is what gets you a win. Dungeons have conditioned our playerbase since Endwalker that they can just walk through dungeons without any fear of failing at all. When there's no failing? There's no challenge. They get conditioned into doing the bare minimum and nothing else like a White Mage spamming Cure. Hell, even Yoshida said it himself in an interview about having no pit to fall in.

When they do their first Extreme, they'll run away from it the moment they're challenged because they're conditioned to NOT be challenged. DT's dungeons have changed that somewhat, but we need more. Tanks are contributing to this conditioning because of how healing is handled - which a majority of it is in Tanks' purview due to the self-sustain that has been apparent since EW. If you want change, you have to push for it yourself - not just sit back and let them do whatever they want. Besides, it's not like this game hasn't had people leave for mundane reasons before; there's starting to be bigger reasons now for your veteran playerbase, and you shouldn't want that.

[Valkyrie_]

I used to tank Eden savage alot and help carry alot of players through it as a Warrior, the healing they had there was perfect, Nascent Flash + Equilibrium + Thrill was more than enough to fulfill the self heal fantasy of a Warrior.
Why they decided to giga buff them with Bloodwhetting and Shake is just beyond me, the class was completely fine and fun before these ridiculous buffs.
The worst thing is they reworked Nascent/Bloodwhetting to give a flat amount, instead of having to time it with your biggest attacks for maximum value, removing the fun skillful part of it.

You'd think tank players would relish living on the edge and facing enemies that actually pose a threat to them , but most seem to just want the easy mode safety net and make excuses like "muh power fantasy" and complain how they *gasp* have to actually rely on their teammates to solve some problems.
Can't imagine how these guys would feel if they had to face a minimum IL Twintania without their OP toys, their stones would probably drop with the first death sentence.

One of the saddest things tho is how I saw Dark Knight players be more concered with not having the same OP heals as the other tanks, instead of being upset over the fact their class got butchered and turned into Warrior clone with one button fell cleave spam.
Whatever happened to the real tank players in this game that liked playing with their comrades and not facerolling everything...?

[HyperiusUltima]

One of the saddest things tho is how I saw Dark Knight players be more concered with not having the same OP heals as the other tanks, instead of being upset over the fact their class got butchered and turned into Warrior clone with one button fell cleave spam.
Whatever happened to the real tank players in this game that liked playing with their comrades and not facerolling everything...?

It's because they got shoved out of being particularly strong on the DPS side back in EW. They had that edge for a couple raid tiers, then when they implemented a change to WAR's Shake in 6.3 and the PLD rework, DRK was losing its spot because now WAR had more powerful heals, more damage, and was the definition of an Omnitank. Became more prominent in Anabaseios as well with how things were designed, since WAR also still had the best mitigation kit.

[ForsakenRoe]

Yeah I didn't read anything that's posted. To be honest can you blame me? A load of wet blankets throwing their toys out of the pram because Tanks are Tanky and can self sustain, exactly the thing that Tanks are meant to do. Shocking stuff.

Least you had the guts to admit you didn't read, most people are just confidently wrong even after reading what's been posted. But, while I can't speak to other people's preferred 'fixes', I can say that my fixes would not make Tanks less 'Tanky', nor would it prevent them from having powerful self-sustain. It would just make 'Healing' into the thing that the 'Healer' does, again. And in its place, the Tanks would have selfsustain in the form of applying short-duration Barrier effects, protecting themselves from harm. Far more thematic to a Tank role, surely?

As for Healer fixes, if we keep designing 100% around 'there are players who don't use the new thing, so why even bother adding it', you can apply the same logic to every Tank addition since SB too. Say goodbye Confiteor/Blades, Primal Rend and Double Down, because some players forget to use them, and some players drift their CD.

The 'answer' is to make new additions be a gain for the sake of optimization, but not enough of a gain to be a problem if they are ignored, via potency balancing. For example:
Give SCH 3 DOTs instead of just 1: Bio, Miasma, Shadowflare
Make Broil 340p
Make Bio 20p on cast, plus 35p per tick for 30s (total 370)
Make Miasma 280p on cast (it's an upgrade/replacement to Ruin2), plus 10p per tick for 24s (total 360)
Make Shadowflare drop a puddle that does 100p on cast, plus 50p per tick to enemies within for 15s (total 350)
Upgrade Energy Drain into Bane, allowing for better DOT spreading potential in dungeons. Make Bane have no damage falloff, but also make it unable to 'reset effect durations'.
With effect durations being non-resettable, we can now allow Chain Stratagem to be spread via Bane, thereby synergizing with Baneful Impaction's addition this expansion

Wow, now if someone does the optimal rotation, they have more to juggle. If they don't do the optimal rotation and instead just spam Broil, they do... 98% of the damage of the optimal rotation (and 99% of the current DT optimal rotation. And that DT rotation includes pressing the DOT). If someone is floundering and chooses to spam 'Ruin2' (now Miasma) so that they have more mobility, they'd even have more damage doing that with these numbers, than they would doing the same with DT's numbers.

This all seems pretty obvious to me, and I'm not sure how SE hasn't thought of this approach yet, but hey, it's their game not mine

[Tehmon]

I find this is a very poor excuse. Even if it is true (which I'm not even certain of, I healed back then and it wasn't hard for me, as someone who is pretty damn casual and played nothing else but smn back then) the answer to healing being hard isn't to make healing absolutely braindead boring, or, even worse, not needed at all for the majority of casual content.

You can complain that it was 'bad healers' who couldn't handle the job that got it to where it is now. But that doesn't mean we just sit here and accept the crap we've been served. The devs do this every time they make something that isn't immediately understood, and y'all throwing your hands up saying 'well I guess we're too stupid for better' doesn't help anyone. It just makes you look dumb, like you can't see a better path past the one you've been given.

I hope Yoshi can see the party chat logs or whatever, because the amount of new healers I've run into lately, saying stuff like 'why am I here/healing is boring' is way the hell too common.

Never seen this happen. If anything, healers have been overall struggling to keep the team up during this expansion more than I've ever experienced before.

[CVXIV]

Never seen this happen. If anything, healers have been overall struggling to keep the team up during this expansion more than I've ever experienced before.

This has been my experience as well honestly
I can't say I've seen anyone in game in the parties I run into complain about the lack of needing to heal
The closest I can think of is when I had Worqor Zormor and the warrior tank told the healer they didn't need to be healed as much as they were receiving so they could focus on damage, and that they mostly needed a regen

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

The one time I mentioned I wanted more to heal back in ShB days because it’s boring in party chat, I was told it’s just casual content & should do ex/savage.

I wonder why that sound so familiar now that I think of it… lol.