We need to do something about Tanks and Outgoing Damage from Bosses

[Rithy255]

I know it's not the only issue, but it IS an issue that should be fixed. And the fix is literally as simple as cutting down the sustain on the tanks.

No and yes.

We should cut down sustain on tanks, but theirs actually more to it then just that, I've said on the post above tanks like warrior need a overhaul in defensive/healing kit, PLD/GNB need to be tuned down, but we don't just remove sustain from tanks and call it a day "healers are fixed"

I will not be happy until both roles have a actual place and have actual decision making, Tanks and Healers both should be treated as support roles and should serve the party in ways that boost the survivability without invalidating one another.

What I don't want is them to up the tanks mitigation value more and just make them boring mitigation bots when we have ZERO enmity management. That is not why I play tank I play tank as a fantasy of "protector of the team".

Mitigation is a large reason why tanks are too strong, fight designs low output is and sustain way too strong, all three need to be tuned with healer kits in mind.

[Jim5K]

The thing is though, that removing sustain from tanks WOULD fix the problem of tanks having too much sustain.

So you would have the Shb Dark Knight back but for all tanks this time? Idk, but healers minus Whm used to frown and complain about Shb Dark Knight because it had zero to no sustain especially with the old Living Dead, so now you want that back so we can complain even more? This is not a fix.

[CaptainLagbeard]

No and yes.

We should cut down sustain on tanks, but theirs actually more to it then just that, I've said on the post above tanks like warrior need a overhaul in defensive/healing kit, PLD/GNB need to be tuned down, but we don't just remove sustain from tanks and call it a day "healers are fixed"

I will not be happy until both roles have a actual place and have actual decision making, Tanks and Healers both should be treated as support roles and should serve the party in ways that boost the survivability without invalidating one another.

What I don't want is them to up the tanks mitigation value more and just make them boring mitigation bots when we have ZERO enmity management. That is not why I play tank I play tank as a fantasy of "protector of the team".

Mitigation is a large reason why tanks are too strong, fight designs low output is and sustain way too strong, all three need to be tuned with healer kits in mind.

If you cut down the tanks ability to heal, mit becomes more important. And with less healing on the tanks, the overall damage stacks up more as you're no longer mitigating it with self-heals.

[CaptainLagbeard]

So you would have the Shb Dark Knight back but for all tanks this time? Idk, but healers minus Whm used to frown and complain about Shb Dark Knight because it had zero to no sustain especially with the old Living Dead, so now you want that back so we can complain even more? This is not a fix.

I would rather have that than the current state of an unbalanced mess we have.

[Alice_Rivers]

Well I agree that Healers aren't healers because theirs nothing to heal, though what would be fun is actual decision making on healers the problem is both tanks and healers have overbloated kits which lead to things like GCD heals vs Damage GCDs not a choice because you can do both, I also fully agree that theirs a line with how much healing tanks can have I've said many times bloodwhetting is a awful cooldown that invalidates healers, warrior also just has a ridiculous amount of sustain beyond that, other tanks are partly guilty of this PLD/GNB but in their case we can effectively nerf mitigation value and sustain value without taking stuff from it's kit, while warrior's defensives/self healing need drastic changes. (I'd argue DRK's in a good spot for self healing).

Tanks being mitigation bots instead of more support oriented is the whole reason why you never heal tanks not because of tank sustain alone, both play a part in making tanks feel more strong I would reduce both and add for tanks to do more then just hold aggro, press your massive mitigation cooldown and healing buttons, I would honestly say current tank design is just miserable and dull for any tank player.

We've agreed previously that content needs to be adjusted but in principle, as a healer, I don't see tank mitigation as a major issue absent self-heals. you can reduce all damage by 75% if you want, if you can't heal then that damage will accumulate and you will eventually lose the battle of attrition, if tanks had mits and shields perhaps even interacting with job gauges then you would have to choose how and when to use those resources and if you should mit or do more dps. While I don't think it should always be such a trade-off but I DO think some elements should overlap so that good tank/healer coordination rewards both parties with more dps, which to be clear it is my position it should be - dps for "support" jobs a reward for good play, not their "primary" duty be the reward for someone being terrible at the game.

So you would have the Shb Dark Knight back but for all tanks this time? Idk, but healers minus Whm used to frown and complain about Shb Dark Knight because it had zero to no sustain especially with the old Living Dead, so now you want that back so we can complain even more? This is not a fix.

I came to the game in EW and DRK was my favourite to heal for exactly this reason, I was disappointed when they increased DRK's self heals in DT. My pocket DRK only needs heals in DT now because they're either low ilvl and/or really doesn't want to use Living Dead, GNB, PLD, WAR are even worse. So would I advocate for an environment that requires healers to do their jobs even if it means some of them whine about their parses? You bet. Seven days a week, three hundred and sixty five days a year.

[Davixxa]

Oddly enough M6 doesn't have this issue due to the constant Party Stack - and even if you try to invuln, even WAR can't have their CD up in time for the next one on top of Raid-wides and Autos. If anything I don't knock design including more party stacks, but then it becomes a body check at that point. Generally you want to not put too many body checks in a fight otherwise we wind up with P10S problems in EW.

As someone said above:



We need this in normal raids badly. Enrage should be lenient enough to allow people to clear if they're 8-man, but no so bad as you need to push hard for damage and have a high-end rotation. They'll have to meet the average player's skill level for this. While someone can argue "but enrage causes casuals to wipe a lot and they can't do the content!", that's never been an issue when it was thrown into an Alliance Raid last expansion. Throw it into normal raids please and you'll probably manage to get some good things from even the normal crowd.

Wait. Myths of the Realm had an enrage? lmao

[Davixxa]

Skill issue or not, the devs also are just making content that's way too hard for the average player. I'm personally getting sick and tired of dungeons with mechanics that would feel right at home in extreme trials, with similar levels of punishment for failure. It's getting extremely annoying. And given what I've seen from both 7.1 and 7.2, the devs want to turn this game into something it just flat wasn't endwalker started this slow slide towards insanity on mechanics design.

Disregarding my opinions on difficulty and encounter design, if you say, in chat, to please wipe, and the tanks continue the fight, then report them. It's considered griefing to keep a fight running if people ask for them to wipe.

As for concerns with tank design and balance, this issue is a massive can of worms and I feel deserves an entire post detailing all the many and myriad problems plaguing encounter and class design. It's an incredibly complicated subject, but it actually owes its roots in what I also brought up -- that the encounters are getting too hard. FFXIV needs a reset and rethink on how classes should be designed, and how encounters engage with the classes. Normal raids don't need to be braindead easy, but it shouldn't feel like an extreme trial from stormblood either.

What do you mean Endwalker started this slow slide towards insanity on mechanics design? Matoya's Relict and Pagl'than on release were harder than any MSQ dungeon Endwalker had to offer. Endwalker's dungeons were genuinely something where I had to turn my brain off to even do them. As a healer, the only time they got fun was when the tank was bad.

Zeromus and Rubicante were mildly difficult on release, the latter mostly because its telegraphs were a bit weird, the former because it was kind of a fast fight. But those are also trials, not dungeons.

I agree we need a reset and rethink on how classes should be designed. That much I do agree with because job diversity is kinda awful at the moment, but I don't think there's a genuine problem with current fight design. 7.2's fights have been awesome. Not so easy as to be a slog, but easy enough that you can intuit them after 1 wipe if you read ability names, use basic pattern recognition, and look around the arena and at what the boss is doing. The only fight I think genuinely might be too hard for casual play is M7.

[Kes13a]

Only adding enrages won’t solve the entire issue. A normal raid dps check that’s at the level of “eight casual players can reliably win, even if there’s a few deaths across the team” will easily be beatable with dead healers if at least a couple living players know how to do their rotations, and if the tanks and dps can keep the remaining players alive. Other people would need to die too. There has to be enough damage where only healers can deal with it, either in the usual output (like in M3 Normal) or when not everyone is alive to do a mechanic (like when there’s party stacks, or P10 Normal’s towers -> harrowing hell). Then eventually only the tanks are alive and they can’t beat the enrage even if they’re good at doing damage.

I’m not sure if taking away healing from tanks is a good idea because then a duty finder party might be more likely to be trapped by bad healers, especially when this game’s normal content currently does not teach people how to play their jobs properly. And this is a playerbase where there’s white mages that get mad if you ask them to use Cure 2.

ah yes, healers are the fail point again.

why are healers bad? couldnt be because there are no option to TEACH them how to heal. why not give tanks the best damage and able to heal since dps is the new fail point. healer s are bad because the game is not designed to teach them how to heal when things get 'exciting'. SE has taken so much "stress" off the healers that mos of them couldnt apply a bandaid let alone a healing spell. so yeah, lets keep buffing the tanks and let them keep something thats not part of their job... its worked so well thus far.

[Supersnow845]

So we shouldn't actually try to fix the core fundamental issues and just remove sustain so you still never actually heal much because the outgoing damage is still too low?

You do realise just removing sustain (other then making tanks more miserable then they already are to play) will just lead to a Band-Aid fix where healers maybe more needed for ultimate's but wouldn't entirely be anymore fun, it's a really low bar for me to just advocate for removing tank sustain and ignoring the problem.

Maybe you'd be content with healers going from never needing to heal, to placing one ogcd heal on the tank extra, personally I want better for both tanks and healers.

Damage needs to be increased across the board but building increased damage on the jenga tower that is current tank sustain is not the right way to go about it

Tank sustain is so overpowered in casual content you basically cannot outscale it without completely overwhelming all but the best healers immediately. There is no functional middle ground where healers of most skill levels can keep up while damage is enough to challenge healers but also challenge tank sustain levels. It just doesn’t work

And I’m going to be a bit mean here but tank sustain is directly affecting the healer role I don’t care if nerfing tank sustain makes tanks feel worse. Tanks shouldn’t have it in the first place. It’s like if healers were better agro controllers than tanks and when tanks asked healers agro to be nerfed healers responded with “but controlling agro feels good don’t ruin my class” even though that feel good action is way way way outside of the classes design paradigm

[Rithy255]

If you cut down the tanks ability to heal, mit becomes more important. And with less healing on the tanks, the overall damage stacks up more as you're no longer mitigating it with self-heals.

But cutting down tanks self healing doesn't make tanks more fun nor does it really improve healers, Both are so fundamentally flawed designs that we're gonna have to do a little more then just "reduce tank sustain". Though I've said in previous posts that I would reduce current tank sustain because it is too high, warrior being the biggest example but other tanks can also use some sustain adjustments.

I don't want to come across like I want tanks to be OP because I really do not think they're fun and healers are not fun either I think current tank design negatively effects healers but isn't even close to all the issues healer has, I don't really know why it has to be a "tank vs healer" argument both suffer from this current design and both need major reworks not just "reduce/remove sustain".

Snip

I can tell you for sure tank mitigation, If I pop Guardian on Paladin I tank no damage from a tank buster, theirs literally just not enough damage to do anything to me, I got so many Mitigations ontop of passive Mitigation compared to other roles, Tanks do not even need that much mitigation, obviously they should be defensive and have high mitigation but we're past that point of it being too much same with self healing and target healing on tanks, though this could blame fights partly as it's a issue with how little damage goes out and like you mentioned below item level really effects healing/tanking in such a noticeable way, I really think item level hurts the game when everyone is over geared because tanks being op along that makes everything scale and stand out even more. Though of course it's many issues.

I do agree with a lot of what you say though I like the idea that extra DPS is good for actual good teamplay, I think we're on similar pages at least as a Tank main I really want to work with my healer instead of pretty much doing everything by pressing a few cooldowns or just my rotation healing me for absurd amounts on PLD, I really dislike magic healing on PLD cuz it's passive and doesn't interact with your kit and theirs just so much of it, hence why PLD's got absurd amount of self healing when you look at the data cuz like 3k of it per minute is just tied to your rotation.

I want to feel like my cooldowns have actual impact because even if I don't press them I know healer kits are just also bloated with 1 million ogcd heals that never get used because tank mitigations/heals are just so strong.

Edit:

Snip

I know you don't really care about if it effects tanks or not, that's fine your a healer main I don't expect you to really care about stuff that doesn't effect you, but they have to design a game that's fun for everyone, I also don't really care if tanks are upset if cooldowns like bloodwhetting is reworked or nerfed, it shouldn't exist I will always defend a level amount of self healing but we are way past normal levels of self healing when it comes to warrior, PLD/GNB are also overtuned.

I personally feel theirs no real gain to only go after sustain I've made this clear it's the entire tanks kit that needs to be scaled down, apart from warrior which needs a overhaul in it's defensive/healing kit design, but in reality we need to overhaul tanks and healers from the ground up, if we're ever ideally going to get fun gameplay from both.