We need to do something about Tanks and Outgoing Damage from Bosses

[Supersnow845]

I'm not sure why people's first instinct is to gut Warrior's defensive cooldowns, that doesn't really solve the problem at all and will just make Warrior border on unviable in Savage content if they have to be babied by healers the entire time. Bloodwhetting is really good in dungeons, but once you go past that into actual high end content then it's about on par with the other short CDs and kinda gets outshined by TBN. I'm not sure why Warrior is getting the hate here when literally any of the other tanks can do this, even Dark Knight is extremely capable of doing this.

Honestly if you just don't want selfish tanks wasting time by not walling when most of the party dies early on, either implement enrages or throw mechanics that a tank just simply can't survive on their own. Or you could just have the boss's auto hit hard enough that the tank needs mit and healers to live. There's only a handful of bosses normal mode content that really hit that hard, Diabolos Hollow is the one I usually think of.

Bloodwhetting gets uniquely hated on because WAR’s cracked sustain in casual content is the basis of why they added so much sustain to ALL the tanks they don’t need

It’s not a matter of removing BW, it’s a matter of none of the tanks need the amount of healing their short CD’s have, nerf BW’s healing and buff its mitigation for savage tanksbusters, HS and HOC just don’t need healing. PLD’s rotational healing is anti healer bloat, equilibrium and shake are excessively strong and now even abyssal drain is basically a benediction in AOE

All tank healing needs to be severely pruned down. A tanks health shouldn’t be sustained entirely from their own healing AND have the ability to sustain others as well

[CaptainLagbeard]

I'm not sure why people's first instinct is to gut Warrior's defensive cooldowns, that doesn't really solve the problem at all and will just make Warrior border on unviable in Savage content if they have to be babied by healers the entire time. Bloodwhetting is really good in dungeons, but once you go past that into actual high end content then it's about on par with the other short CDs and kinda gets outshined by TBN. I'm not sure why Warrior is getting the hate here when literally any of the other tanks can do this, even Dark Knight is extremely capable of doing this.

Honestly if you just don't want selfish tanks wasting time by not walling when most of the party dies early on, either implement enrages or throw mechanics that a tank just simply can't survive on their own. Or you could just have the boss's auto hit hard enough that the tank needs mit and healers to live. There's only a handful of bosses normal mode content that really hit that hard, Diabolos Hollow is the one I usually think of.

Because I highly doubt cutting their damage reduction and replacing it with more max HP and more healing received like they used to have would drastically hurt their ability to survive attacks.


But other tanks do need their healing gutted, I just think they could let WAR still be what it's been in the past.

[Rithy255]

I'm not sure why people's first instinct is to gut Warrior's defensive cooldowns, that doesn't really solve the problem at all and will just make Warrior border on unviable in Savage content if they have to be babied by healers the entire time. Bloodwhetting is really good in dungeons, but once you go past that into actual high end content then it's about on par with the other short CDs and kinda gets outshined by TBN. I'm not sure why Warrior is getting the hate here when literally any of the other tanks can do this, even Dark Knight is extremely capable of doing this.

Honestly if you just don't want selfish tanks wasting time by not walling when most of the party dies early on, either implement enrages or throw mechanics that a tank just simply can't survive on their own. Or you could just have the boss's auto hit hard enough that the tank needs mit and healers to live. There's only a handful of bosses normal mode content that really hit that hard, Diabolos Hollow is the one I usually think of.

Problem is skills like bloodwhetting only feels good for the warrior, It doesn't feel good for the healers. While I have no issue with some self healing, when it replaces a main function of a role even in dungeon content I do not think it's a good design

If there was a healer that could force aggro on itself and mitigate more damage then the tank, it may feel fun for that healer but it also completely invalidates tanks.

Warrior also has literally self healing tied to every single defensive cooldown, It would need to be reduced in order for healers to actually heal the warrior, other tanks are also not perfect Paladin has too much healing from magic attacks I think you need to reduce/remove that, GNB's aurora didn't need a buff and I think Dark knight is fine as it is now.

[hydralus]

I did the new trial and for the split tankbuster I popped an aquaveil on a DRK and their blackest knight shield didn't even pop. Crazy.

[Servebotfrank]

I did the new trial and for the split tankbuster I popped an aquaveil on a DRK and their blackest knight shield didn't even pop. Crazy.

That comes up in almost every bit of content, TBN just never breaks outside of trash or specific tankbusters because nothing hits really hard. In Savage it breaks in like two autos.

[Aravell]

I wonder if a solution like this would help the situation:

Make autoattacks bypass innate defensive value but not mitigation

So instead of tanks taking about 70% less damage from autoattacks compared to casters, they'd take only 20% less damage from everyone else passively due to the tank mastery trait. So while tanks can still delay death by using mitigation, they can't do it indefinitely as they'd eventually run out and die without healer support.

[Alice_Rivers]

Well I agree that Healers aren't healers because theirs nothing to heal, though what would be fun is actual decision making on healers the problem is both tanks and healers have overbloated kits which lead to things like GCD heals vs Damage GCDs not a choice because you can do both, I also fully agree that theirs a line with how much healing tanks can have I've said many times bloodwhetting is a awful cooldown that invalidates healers, warrior also just has a ridiculous amount of sustain beyond that, other tanks are partly guilty of this PLD/GNB but in their case we can effectively nerf mitigation value and sustain value without taking stuff from it's kit, while warrior's defensives/self healing need drastic changes. (I'd argue DRK's in a good spot for self healing).

Tanks being mitigation bots instead of more support oriented is the whole reason why you never heal tanks not because of tank sustain alone, both play a part in making tanks feel more strong I would reduce both and add for tanks to do more then just hold aggro, press your massive mitigation cooldown and healing buttons, I would honestly say current tank design is just miserable and dull for any tank player.

We've agreed previously that content needs to be adjusted but in principle, as a healer, I don't see tank mitigation as a major issue absent self-heals. you can reduce all damage by 75% if you want, if you can't heal then that damage will accumulate and you will eventually lose the battle of attrition, if tanks had mits and shields perhaps even interacting with job gauges then you would have to choose how and when to use those resources and if you should mit or do more dps. While I don't think it should always be such a trade-off but I DO think some elements should overlap so that good tank/healer coordination rewards both parties with more dps, which to be clear it is my position it should be - dps for "support" jobs a reward for good play, not their "primary" duty be the reward for someone being terrible at the game.

So you would have the Shb Dark Knight back but for all tanks this time? Idk, but healers minus Whm used to frown and complain about Shb Dark Knight because it had zero to no sustain especially with the old Living Dead, so now you want that back so we can complain even more? This is not a fix.

I came to the game in EW and DRK was my favourite to heal for exactly this reason, I was disappointed when they increased DRK's self heals in DT. My pocket DRK only needs heals in DT now because they're either low ilvl and/or really doesn't want to use Living Dead, GNB, PLD, WAR are even worse. So would I advocate for an environment that requires healers to do their jobs even if it means some of them whine about their parses? You bet. Seven days a week, three hundred and sixty five days a year.

[Rithy255]

If you cut down the tanks ability to heal, mit becomes more important. And with less healing on the tanks, the overall damage stacks up more as you're no longer mitigating it with self-heals.

But cutting down tanks self healing doesn't make tanks more fun nor does it really improve healers, Both are so fundamentally flawed designs that we're gonna have to do a little more then just "reduce tank sustain". Though I've said in previous posts that I would reduce current tank sustain because it is too high, warrior being the biggest example but other tanks can also use some sustain adjustments.

I don't want to come across like I want tanks to be OP because I really do not think they're fun and healers are not fun either I think current tank design negatively effects healers but isn't even close to all the issues healer has, I don't really know why it has to be a "tank vs healer" argument both suffer from this current design and both need major reworks not just "reduce/remove sustain".

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I can tell you for sure tank mitigation, If I pop Guardian on Paladin I tank no damage from a tank buster, theirs literally just not enough damage to do anything to me, I got so many Mitigations ontop of passive Mitigation compared to other roles, Tanks do not even need that much mitigation, obviously they should be defensive and have high mitigation but we're past that point of it being too much same with self healing and target healing on tanks, though this could blame fights partly as it's a issue with how little damage goes out and like you mentioned below item level really effects healing/tanking in such a noticeable way, I really think item level hurts the game when everyone is over geared because tanks being op along that makes everything scale and stand out even more. Though of course it's many issues.

I do agree with a lot of what you say though I like the idea that extra DPS is good for actual good teamplay, I think we're on similar pages at least as a Tank main I really want to work with my healer instead of pretty much doing everything by pressing a few cooldowns or just my rotation healing me for absurd amounts on PLD, I really dislike magic healing on PLD cuz it's passive and doesn't interact with your kit and theirs just so much of it, hence why PLD's got absurd amount of self healing when you look at the data cuz like 3k of it per minute is just tied to your rotation.

I want to feel like my cooldowns have actual impact because even if I don't press them I know healer kits are just also bloated with 1 million ogcd heals that never get used because tank mitigations/heals are just so strong.

Edit:

Snip

I know you don't really care about if it effects tanks or not, that's fine your a healer main I don't expect you to really care about stuff that doesn't effect you, but they have to design a game that's fun for everyone, I also don't really care if tanks are upset if cooldowns like bloodwhetting is reworked or nerfed, it shouldn't exist I will always defend a level amount of self healing but we are way past normal levels of self healing when it comes to warrior, PLD/GNB are also overtuned.

I personally feel theirs no real gain to only go after sustain I've made this clear it's the entire tanks kit that needs to be scaled down, apart from warrior which needs a overhaul in it's defensive/healing kit design, but in reality we need to overhaul tanks and healers from the ground up, if we're ever ideally going to get fun gameplay from both.

[CaptainLagbeard]

But cutting down tanks self healing doesn't make tanks more fun nor does it really improve healers, Both are so fundamentally flawed designs that we're gonna have to do a little more then just "reduce tank sustain". Though I've said in previous posts that I would reduce current tank sustain because it is too high, warrior being the biggest example but other tanks can also use some sustain adjustments.

I don't want to come across like I want tanks to be OP because I really do not think they're fun and healers are not fun either I think current tank design negatively effects healers but isn't even close to all the issues healer has, I don't really know why it has to be a "tank vs healer" argument both suffer from this current design and both need major reworks not just "reduce/remove sustain".

I keep saying it is not the only issue, but IS an issue that NEEDS to be fixed.
And the fix to this particular issue is literally cutting down or just removing sustain abilities from tanks.

[Reginald_Cain]

Dumb thing to get mad about ngl. Just ask the tanks to reset or report them. Not hard. Tanks being able to sustain themselves is the only fun thing they have anymore now that their desire rotation, tank stance, and mitigation has gotten so streamlined and simplistic. Don't ruin my fun because you had a few rude tanks.