Thread: Revelations from Patch 7.2: Seekers of Eternity

Originally Posted by Cleretic

I mean, she spent several centuries doing exactly what Calyx needed of her, and 7.2 showed us that Calyx is a 'learn from failures' kind of person more than he is a 'plan for all eventualities' person. Why throw her out if she's doing everything needed of her, and the event that she goes against him both hasn't happened yet and, as far as they know, very well might never happen? That just sounds like a whole lot of needless work to produce a perfect plan that you don't need, because the current one's already working just fine.

Learning from failures is fine, but you must agree that there are failures so great, that there's simply no excuse for them. Losing the key is almost the worst case scenario for Calyx' plans; one of the last things he should've wanted to happen. (Remember: He has waited hundreds of years for this key, and that he got it back at all was actually just an insane coincidence)
There is a difference between failure and catastrophe.
For Example: If you found a button that could destroy the earth, would you hand it to the equivalent of an emotionally unstable teenager? Of course you wouldn't, because everyone knows that is not a good idea. There is nothing good to be learned from doing that.

If you introduce a character to a story that is a scientist, driven by intelligence and logic, every time that character does something illogical, it's either a writing mistake, or a plothole that needs filling.
I can accept that Calyx' plan might not be flawless, but if that is the case, the story should shine a light on it instead of making us guess about these supposed flaws.
And that is all I really want in the end, and I really hope 7.3 delivers. There is a good chance that Sphene's crown will tell us more.

Originally Posted by Cleretic

And similarly, why go through all the effort to use the regulators to manipulate people's memories to achieve a plan without Sphene, when 'get Sphene to ask someone to do something' has worked for hundreds of years? Hell, I'd argue that the existence of Oblivion and the largely-undiscussed people not using regulators shows that trying to change their approach is really not feasible; he actually can't control the memories of the entire population. However, both Oblivion and the non-regulator-using masses seem to like Sphene well enough, at least as far as they ever could like someone in her position, so why would you ever stop using her as the figurehead and risk escalating them into action? You call the idea of Calyx replacing Sphene 'pragmatic', but I actually think it'd be the mark of an irrational and paranoid actor to replace something that's worked perfectly for centuries simply because, in some unforeseen circumstances, it might backfire. Especially because there's absolutely no guarantee that your replacement plan works any better, and that the act of replacement itself could very well cause great issues.

I'd argue that there are ways to replace Sphene and manipulate the masses' memories without stirring too much trouble (seeing as the Alexandrians are probably the most docile people we've ever met), but we'd get massively off track that way.

Originally Posted by Cleretic

Quite simply, I think you're reading Calyx incorrectly, and calling anything that doesn't line up with your reading of him wrong, or 'bad writing', instead of admitting that you might be mistaken. I really recommend you try to stop yourself from doing this, because otherwise you're likely to get really mad at 7.3 for refuting what you've decided is canon.

While there is always some kind of interpretative element to a story, Dawntrail has been especially keen on withholding information that might get players on the same page of what exactly is happening. Zoraal-Ja is a great example for this, as arguably many players were unable to connect with him as a character and villain. Are they wrong for failing to make that connection, or did the writers simply not do enough to set him up? (Not to mention: What exactly was Calyx thinking when he practically let Zoraal be king and have the key for 30 years until we showed up? But that's an entirely different can of worms)

I'll take the possibility that I am misreading Calyx as a character into consideration, and that there truly is nothing more to be said about his methods and motivations. Though if you are right about him, it still makes me question whether he couldn't have been set up better. A plot element being up for interpretation doesn't excuse it from criticism or scrutiny from a storytelling perspective, especially if it is necessary to understand the plot in its entirety. So if I am going to be disappointed in 7.3 (thank you for your concern), it won't have anything to do with me maybe being wrong about who Calyx is as a character, but rather that the story is missing something to drive home all the ideas it wants to come across.

I think we can leave it at that, but if you have something to add, feel free. I thank you for your time, and I hope you got something out of the discussion as well!

Originally Posted by Thighland

Zoraal-Ja is a great example for this, as arguably many players were unable to connect with him as a character and villain. Are they wrong for failing to make that connection, or did the writers simply not do enough to set him up? (Not to mention: What exactly was Calyx thinking when he practically let Zoraal be king and have the key for 30 years until we showed up? But that's an entirely different can of worms)

This is just a different discussion entirely, but to start with the second point: Calyx was probably thinking something along the lines of 'hell yeah, convenient ally/patsy' about Zoraal Ja. Guy turns up with that key they've been wanting, and wants nothing more than to wage war against the Source that they already want to turn their crosshairs on? Great! Make him king, let him do half the work for them, absorb all the bad PR that comes from declaring a war, and then just pick up and do the rest whenever he inevitably bites it, which they were kinda setting up to happen anyway. During the events of 7.0 Calyx essentially just wanted everything Sphene wanted, and Sphene's outlook on this was pretty clear.

As to the first point: Zoraal Ja's really interesting to me, because while you're implying a scenario where the writers failed at what you're implying was required, I think they completely succeeded, because he was not written to be connected to. He is designed to be the villain in the most brute-force, 'no further information needed' way possible. He's comparable to someone like Exdeath from FFV in that way: you don't need to feel anything other than a fervent desire to kick this guy in the grill, so they only give you reasons to kick him in the grill. As a result, he stands interestingly counter to how FFXIV usually tells its stories; we usually get big elaborate emotional monologues about a character's truth, and Zoraal Ja upsets our expectations by simply refusing to speak, and often being openly wrong whenever he does. I remember I compared him to Yoshikage Kira in JoJo, or Gul Dukat in Star Trek: characters that disrupt our usual way of understanding those stories, by being people who refuse to directly explain themselves in a series where that had become a given. The writers needed Zoraal Ja to be a villain: they didn't need you to like him. It's not a failure that they succeeded at the thing they were aiming for.

What's interesting about that, is that in 7.1 we had Gulool Ja's story of trying to learn about his parents. Only after Zoraal Ja's death did we get a story that needs him to be a person, so the humanizing scenes of him only come posthumously, and only in relation to what needs to further Gulool Ja's story. It really demonstrates that it's not that they failed to make Zoraal Ja relatable at first: it's that they refused to, until it suited the story they were telling.

Originally Posted by Cleretic

What's interesting about that, is that in 7.1 we had Gulool Ja's story of trying to learn about his parents. Only after Zoraal Ja's death did we get a story that needs him to be a person, so the humanizing scenes of him only come posthumously, and only in relation to what needs to further Gulool Ja's story. It really demonstrates that it's not that they failed to make Zoraal Ja relatable at first: it's that they refused to, until it suited the story they were telling.

While I doubt that it was the writers' intention for Zoraal'Ja to be completely unrelatable in 7.0 (and even if it was, it didn't really work for most people I've talked to), I personally completely agree with you that 7.1 retroactively helped make Zoraal'Ja a more 'real' character.
In my opinion that is the same thing Calyx needs. He's arguably a complex character with a very long history and plenty of influence, but we've only known him for one patch, which is not a lot.

Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

I feel that is one of the interesting elements where he is concerned though. As you say, we haven't known him long but it's made clear that he's been watching us for quite a while. Difficult to pinpoint exactly when we caught his attention but I'd argue it has been at least since we rammed a train into Everkeep's front door and defeated everything Vanguard threw at us.

I mean, that's the earliest point he could have known about us since our contact with Alexandria was nonexistent until then.

That said Calyx's interest in us seems to have been piqued by our defeat of Queen Eternal at the end of 7.0, if his comment during the Valia Pira fight ("I'm beginning to understand how you were able to defeat Queen Eternal.") is anything to go on. Our indomitability is clearly something he hasn't accounted for so far.