The 7.2 Frontline changes are EXCELLENT

[gidsonBrand]

From what little we've seen in preliminary patch notes and role actions, Frontlines is getting a ton of new options for aggressive play.

When Dragoon, Dark Knight, and all of the other "good" classes got their damage nerfed, we received no alternative options for offense. People have still found a way to make impactful plays, but it's just the same thing with a bit less oomph.

These new role actions, especially Rampage and Dervish, seem to promote new ways of attacking with and supporting your team. Combine that with the Battle High changes that allow the buff to spread more evenly across your team, and I think the devs are finally understanding that offense and aggression keep the game engaging.

I hope that the unseen role actions also encourage people to coordinate attacks with a group, and that Secure turns out to be a great place to play with my friends.

[Mawlzy]

From what little we've seen in preliminary patch notes and role actions, Frontlines is getting a ton of new options for aggressive play.

When Dragoon, Dark Knight, and all of the other "good" classes got their damage nerfed, we received no alternative options for offense. People have still found a way to make impactful plays, but it's just the same thing with a bit less oomph.

These new role actions, especially Rampage and Dervish, seem to promote new ways of attacking with and supporting your team. Combine that with the Battle High changes that allow the buff to spread more evenly across your team, and I think the devs are finally understanding that offense and aggression keep the game engaging.

I hope that the unseen role actions also encourage people to coordinate attacks with a group, and that Secure turns out to be a great place to play with my friends.

Are you not basically saying the changes will be great for premades? If so, I think you're probably right, which is a potential disaster given the vast majority of players queue solo.

However I'll withhold judgement until I've played a bit.

[gidsonBrand]

It's great for any team able to read the field and coordinate their attacks. Which is good for both solo queue players who want to fit in with the team, as well as premade parties that are going in with a plan.

If people being good at the game is bad for the vast majority of players, then I don't know what to say besides git gud.

[Mawlzy]

It's great for any team able to read the field and coordinate their attacks. Which is good for both solo queue players who want to fit in with the team, as well as premade parties that are going in with a plan.

If people being good at the game is bad for the vast majority of players, then I don't know what to say besides git gud.

Oh please don't say "git gud," I credit you with more intelligence than that.

If these changes raise the skill ceiling, I'm all for them.

My issue is that anything that increases the power of zerg+burst does the complete opposite. It means there's really only a single, monotonous strategy. Hence I was thrilled by the partial neutering of DRK+ light parties in 7.1.

We view what is good about FL differently. I recall you lauding the fact that FL is a rare game mode where you can kill 48 enemies at once. To me this is its central flaw.

I'd also note that coordination is abused in practice by some premades, simply because they are padders who are not prioritizing the victory of the team at all. Naturally by killing enemies the goals of the padders and the team can align, but often they don't. There's been an increase in this issue recently on Aether.

I look forward to discussing this with you further when we have some data.

[Teno]

From what little we've seen in preliminary patch notes and role actions, Frontlines is getting a ton of new options for aggressive play.

When Dragoon, Dark Knight, and all of the other "good" classes got their damage nerfed, we received no alternative options for offense. People have still found a way to make impactful plays, but it's just the same thing with a bit less oomph.

These new role actions, especially Rampage and Dervish, seem to promote new ways of attacking with and supporting your team. Combine that with the Battle High changes that allow the buff to spread more evenly across your team, and I think the devs are finally understanding that offense and aggression keep the game engaging.

I hope that the unseen role actions also encourage people to coordinate attacks with a group, and that Secure turns out to be a great place to play with my friends.

Seems like a decent step in the right direction overall. Bringing back a faster or more explosive pace is needed in frontline. Will have to see how it pans out in game.

[Teno]

Are you not basically saying the changes will be great for premades? If so, I think you're probably right, which is a potential disaster given the vast majority of players queue solo.

However I'll withhold judgement until I've played a bit.

You're underestimating the potential for solo players. I recognize by name most of the regulars and I tend to play around or with them, so I see a lot of value in these more "group-oriented" skills. And many solo players also tend to play that way so I'm rather optimistic for once. But we'll only see it when we see it. I'm withholding judgment too.

[gidsonBrand]

So then, what? We're just not supposed to encourage offense whatsoever?

Right now, the only way to consistently defeat another team is to go full 24v24, because you just NEED that much damage and sustain. No other strat is viable. If you want the zerging to stop and change into more 8v8 skirmishes followed by the occasional bloodbath, then 4-8 people need to have enough firepower to defeat an entire alliance.

These changes to battle high & good offensive role actions are a step towards that. Coordinate with your team, find your role in the stack. And if an army comes at you in a stupid zerg way, bait it out and fire the artillery on them. Pull a 300 and hold your choke.

[Mawlzy]

So then, what? We're just not supposed to encourage offense whatsoever?

Right now, the only way to consistently defeat another team is to go full 24v24, because you just NEED that much damage and sustain. No other strat is viable. If you want the zerging to stop and change into more 8v8 skirmishes followed by the occasional bloodbath, then 4-8 people need to have enough firepower to defeat an entire alliance.

These changes to battle high & good offensive role actions are a step towards that. Coordinate with your team, find your role in the stack. And if an army comes at you in a stupid zerg way, bait it out and fire the artillery on them. Pull a 300 and hold your choke.

Make the mode 8v8v8 and shrink the map, then we wouldn't need massive DR values that allow a player to survive a multi-player attack, thereby requiring a larger multi-player attack, that leads to a greater DR modifier...

BH has a similar problem. If it just modified attack damage, it might do what you want it to, but it doesn't. So my fear is this will make the first 2 minutes the deciding factor in who wins the match.

(Edit: is that a reference to a tractor?)

You're underestimating the potential for solo players. I recognize by name most of the regulars and I tend to play around or with them, so I see a lot of value in these more "group-oriented" skills. And many solo players also tend to play that way so I'm rather optimistic for once. But we'll only see it when we see it. I'm withholding judgment too.

Oh I agree with what you're saying. Good solo players tend to be in the right place because they're paying attention, and typically enough of them show up together that these changes will make them more effective.

Ironically it's the padding premades that tend to derail this, most noticeably on Onsal mid.

What I'm really dreading is the the BH and role action changes will return us fully to the banality of the pre-7.1 meta, but time will tell.

[gidsonBrand]

Do you really think that people would stop complaining about premades or "overpowered" tactics if the mode changed to 8v8v8? And the maps shrank? No, they'd die even faster since 8 people bursting 1 target is practically a guaranteed kill.

And then there would be more complaints and nerfs -- which is why the devs need to hear praise for their current direction of encouraging offense & rewarding a successful engagement. No premade boogieman is ruining the mode for you, it's the community's general lack of care for learning the game and finger pointing at those who do learn.

Give people tools to make the play. Let them figure out how to do it, since beating the crap out of someone who's had your number all game (and learning over time how to play) is so much more fun.

[Mawlzy]

Do you really think that people would stop complaining about premades or "overpowered" tactics if the mode changed to 8v8v8? And the maps shrank? No, they'd die even faster since 8 people bursting 1 target is practically a guaranteed kill.

And then there would be more complaints and nerfs -- which is why the devs need to hear praise for their current direction of encouraging offense & rewarding a successful engagement. No premade boogieman is ruining the mode for you, it's the community's general lack of care for learning the game and finger pointing at those who do learn.

Give people tools to make the play. Let them figure out how to do it, since beating the crap out of someone who's had your number all game (and learning over time how to play) is so much more fun.

I think 8v8v8 would be a much better mode, partly because FL jobs are "balanced" based on a 5v5 mode. The new actions are a good step precisely because they allow decoupling from CC and FL. 8v8v8 also allows matchmaking which is desperately needed, if only to put the significant people who are not making any effort into their own kiddie pool.

Outside of that, don't you think it's rather premature to praise the devs for the changes? Particularly since once again they were foisted upon us without anyone here asking for such changes, while suggestions we've made for years continue to be ignored?

If 7.2 produces a more enjoyable experience, I'll be saying so loudly and clearly in the desperate hope they won't get reverted.