Genuinely, What am I missing?

[Kaurhz]

Thanks for taking the time to actually try and relate or understand some of the issues that players have...

As much as I criticize everything, you would probably enjoy the game even after Shadowbringers, and well into Endwalker and Dawntrail, purely because you're in a state when you still have a lot to consume between expansions.. Realistically a lot of people that are complaining have been long-standing players... So they have consumed a lot of the content all across the board, and they will have been coming from a time and place where the game (in their view and mine) was much better. Not only that, having so much to do, means that you're able to do the story at your own pace (many people have only been able to do nothing but story, just by virtue on how long they've been playing and how much they've done)

As for why the community feels that way.. See the above...

For a little more of a detailed answer, for many players they had been playing when the game demanded a lot out of you, so it was capable of keeping you occupied for very extensive periods of time, and this was even without needing to diversify your content consumption. For instance in the days of HW/SB, you could comfortably just do crafting, and nothing but crafting (and it would keep you entertained and occupied outside of the number dopamine that consumes modern crafting). The game generally speaking would demand your attention a lot more, and for people looking for that, it was an amazing game, I am one such example.

The game since then has streamlined more, so activities like crafting no longer really demand what it used to, but is now a much more approachable content type.. Obviously this is something else where it's very much preferential.. Do you want something that you feel like you can drown in? Do you want something that you can maybe play a couple hours here and there on a weekday.

I sometimes say to myself that had I never started as long ago as what I did then many of my complaints would not be as stern as they are, just because it's by courtesy of having something to compare by, or having a reference point from how the game was.. At least as a newer player, then the only thing you really know is the current state. I know had I not been playing as long as I have (and since when I did), then my enjoyment of the state of the game probably would be a fair bit higher.

It's always difficult with this, because you're trying to get people to relate to you without ever having experienced it themselves.

Then you have the issue that the last exploratory content was over 4 years ago this is obviously something that has only happened once, and exacerbated by the absence of this content from Endwalker.

I think it's a decision you need to make for yourself, as a lot of the issues that people have and that people see (even if you may agree in principle) you may never encounter, just virtue of being a newer player.

[Illianaro]

snip.

I wish I could like this twice. Really well said.

[Remarus]

For a little more of a detailed answer, for many players they had been playing when the game demanded a lot out of you, so it was capable of keeping you occupied for very extensive periods of time, and this was even without needing to diversify your content consumption. For instance in the days of HW/SB, you could comfortably just do crafting, and nothing but crafting (and it would keep you entertained and occupied outside of the number dopamine that consumes modern crafting). The game generally speaking would demand your attention a lot more, and for people looking for that, it was an amazing game, I am one such example.

The game since then has streamlined more, so activities like crafting no longer really demand what it used to, but is now a much more approachable content type.. Obviously this is something else where it's very much preferential.. Do you want something that you feel like you can drown in? Do you want something that you can maybe play a couple hours here and there on a weekday.

Part of that is also the community though. Back in the day we didn't have tools like Teamcraft that could sim and custom build entire rotations for you to 100% your craft every time. You had to learn the interplay and push and pull between the various crafting states and maximize your resources to HQ your crafts. Yes we had more HQ mats and such, but the system overall hasn't changed much.

The community goes out of its way to simplify everything into a rote and direct way of doing things and then complains when SE takes that as feedback that we want things simplified.

Needless to say, you can't make everyone happy all the time.

OP, if you're having fun, simply keep playing and maybe consider joining an FC or one of the various XIV Discords for tips and tricks and community. The forums are where people come to yell at SE.

[Kaurhz]

Part of that is also the community though. Back in the day we didn't have tools like Teamcraft that could sim and custom build entire rotations for you to 100% your craft every time. You had to learn the interplay and push and pull between the various crafting states and maximize your resources to HQ your crafts. Yes we had more HQ mats and such, but the system overall hasn't changed much.

The community goes out of its way to simplify everything into a rote and direct way of doing things and then complains when SE takes that as feedback that we want things simplified.

Needless to say, you can't make everyone happy all the time.

OP, if you're having fun, simply keep playing and maybe consider joining an FC or one of the various XIV Discords for tips and tricks and community. The forums are where people come to yell at SE.

So whilst I agree with your conclusion that part of the issue is with the community, and that part of it they go out of their way to turn it into a rote and direct task, and that you cannot make everyone happy all the time, the rest I actually disagree with...

The fundamental principle of crafting has remained the same in that... You have a recipe, the goal is to get it to 100% on both progress and quality.. You still had tools like crafting optimizers, these always existed as far back as around 9-10 years ago, the biggest difference being that TC was the only one to get pinpoint correctness, and where it was centrally maintained, but the optimizers were largely github.io websites, and then you had Lokyst, and you had to rely on some people to fork it and make the adjustments early-patch (I am talking really early)... These were pretty actively maintained as well until Teamcraft took over. It was like a lightweight early version. But facilitated exactly the same stuff essentially as far as rotation building went. The only major difference is that as far as the solver function went, it would not generate a practical rotation.. It was only recently until things like Raphael where this was possible, which is a this expansion development.

Not only that but you had an ability suite like WWYW, which actually rewarded you for the effort you put into learning it, by being able to pull off absurd things. It was very uniquely skill-driven, on top of having abilities like Byregot's Miracle and Byregot's Brow, which if you mastered crafting would allow you to pull off a Double Byregot's.. Recipe scaling was a smidge better back then too, how well you managed your abilities, even on a macro level would allow you to do things like tea-less rotations, or being able to reuse, reclaim combo on rotations back in Stormblood. Then you had the position where even if you were low on stats, or if your favored less optimized on a step-level, but also had the highest rate of quality, or supported on the lowest stat, then you could go with rotations like Maker's Mark, and if you were willing to push the stacks to the limit then there was a lot of room for optimizing, or gaining additional quality... This was especially prominent in recipes like the original Ala Mhigan 2** DoH/L gear where you could pad out a significant number of steps to gain additional quality without necessarily having much CP loss or durability loss overall. - Small things like these, whilst they seem insignificant gave a lot more way into creating rotations, and how diverse they actually were. Things like this are utterly lost in modern crafting.. You may have never noticed these things, but people who wanted to stretch their gameplay, and push crafting as high as they could, absolutely would..Quality and Control worked differently back then too, and scaled much differently to how it does now, which facilitated such dynamic rotations and fairly long-form optimization. Like, you won't see rotations like this anymore, ever.


Due to the unique nature of crafting back then, versus now, you would actually find that many people were also finding optimized rotations even as far as several months into the patch cycle, similarly the case with meld builds. These days it is far more streamlined, partly because community, but largely because of the ability suite that actually supported crafting has been utterly gutted into oblivion.

Stormblood streamlined the recipe acquisition, but still had a lot of room for rotations, that's where things like WWYW became more practical, as that suite came with some CP nerf costs, e.g., to Trained Hand, and then you had a greater CP pool overall... Then if we look further back to the Heavensward expansion, this where it truly sealed the deal that you could be a crafter main, much like how a raider could be a raider and do only raiding, you could craft, and only craft, and still have plenty of fun without it necessarily seeming like an ordeal.

Firstly materia wasn't obtainable through scrips, you actually had to farm this, which in the case of Heavensward largely relied on player self-sufficiency. You would craft 170 Carbonweave Gear, and using this you would grind items like Camphor, since it was cheap and easily mass produced. This would get you spiritbonding, which you would use to convert to Grade IV/V materia, and you would then use these materia on your gear, or you could make a fortune from these alone, since the materia price back that ranged from 100-500K..., it wasn't until the first custom delivery client where the prices and accessibility went down. So if you really wanted to push the boundary of crafting, which was oft' necessary for items like first tier of gear, since it was not something that could be mass produced. You actually had a weekly currency back then, and then this currency was tied to what we known back then as Concealed nodes or favor nodes, where you would get items used in recipes like Astral Birch Lumber.. It was a massive investment, but it actually rewarded you for it.

Then with things like Ironworks gear for the final DoH/L set of Heavensward it used Glass Fiber, this is your equivalent to Condensed Solution for Eeverseeker gear... Except back then it was not directly tradeable with Scrips... You were either getting it from places like Void Ark, or through grinding the i180 Scrip gear at the time, e.g., Landmaster scrip, or gear like Galleykeep (Getting these was also different since you had things called counterfoils back then which required crafting very particular recipes, rather than farming Rarefied Tacos de Carne Asada ad nauseum) .. It's worth mentioning that this was with desynthesis which worked completely different back then to how it does now, since your desynthesis rate was tied directly to your desynthesis level, and this wasn't just an obscure "May increase your chances at rare items" Then we eventually had the recipes to where they were consistently using Grand Company items, this encouraged players to actually run dungeons, farm GCs, or craft items, trade those in with GCs... Needless to say how you gathered for these recipes was entirely different on a patch-by-patch basis, since the 3* and 4* items generally threw away with Concealed node items, and favored Grand Company, so this meant the feel was different, and the approach was fresh... With modern crafting I don't even need to think about these, it's just the same streamlined rote task.. Farm some scrips, farm some folklore items, craft up, job done. Due to the nature back then it also made preparation a bit more encompassing, rather than how it is now with "just farm scrips lul and Level 99 requisite recipes"... Even ARR crafting, where the gear progression was actually fun to engage with and not just repetitive.

So ye, it ain't just... "Back then we didn't have the tools" (Because we did), nor is it just "100% your craft every time back then, because there were uncertainties", nor is it "The system ain't changed that much", because it has if you're willing to look past the fundamental logic of.. Progress bar, quality bar.. Fill it with abilities... Because the abilities were different back then.. You also had Patient Touch which added a gambling element with gigantic benefits if you were willing to take the risk. Especially important if you were down on a little RNG, and thenm you even had the name/brand of the elements mechanic which was absurdly powerful on 35 durability recipes.

Sure we still have experts, but these do not hold a candle, because the gathering for them is still woefully simplified, as is the supporting ability toolkit, and this is a fundamental issue.. They are trying to make everyone happy by putting these systems on top.. Whether it's expert crafting or whatever else.. A lot of that is undone by the abilities supporting that content. This is why I said if you haven't experienced the game back then, then you can probably enjoy it, but for a lot of people, this was so much engagement, and investment. I could sit there for hours just crafting Twinsilk in level 15/20 gear (and doing this was far more exciting than modern experts, just because of the element of control over the success of the recipe -- Even on 266CP), and it would be interesting and fun.. Because WWYW was interesting.. and fun.


Again, all things lost to the game.. All things that for many people made the game feel a lot more encompassing and engaging. I do also agree though, OP should keep doing what they are doing if they are having fun, and to make the decision for themselves if it fun.

[Remarus]

- snip -

While I appreciate the deeper analysis, our tools were not as robust back then and simply not as well programmed because the community was smaller and we simply hadn't optimized the fun out of everything yet. If the crafting suite had not been touched at all from then to now, we'd still have Teamcraft calculating the most optimal rotation within a day of a new craft recipe landing. That's just the nature of modern MMOs.

[Kaurhz]

While I appreciate the deeper analysis, our tools were not as robust back then and simply not as well programmed because the community was smaller and we simply hadn't optimized the fun out of everything yet. If the crafting suite had not been touched at all from then to now, we'd still have Teamcraft calculating the most optimal rotation within a day of a new craft recipe landing. That's just the nature of modern MMOs.

They were not as robust, that I agree with, but functionally for rotation building they really weren't that different aside from true pinpoint accuracy (largely on progress), but generally across the board you would very rarely find yourself in a position where something broke in-game but didn't break in sim.. People were pushing out rotations within the day on tools such as Lokyst, even when the community was much smaller, when the tools weren't as well programmed, and often required people forking it. The community may also be much larger now, but the number of people actively sharing resources hasn't really changed a great deal (since a larger set of the playerbase is more than happy just using someone else's solution, only major difference is where you might find them, e.g., centralized hub on TC, versus Google Doc, YouTube Video or Forums), especially since Stormblood era, and nor has the underlying skill of the people producing them.. Further, Teamcraft wasn't really building the rotation for you, you were still creating the rotation yourself, it was only until Raph where it fully build it for you (Which is a very very new development). People were still doing the "Let's optimize the fun out of this" mentality even back in Stormblood (Players would go to very significant lengths - Much more than they do now, I would argue). The whole tealess/foodless spec/non-spec, rotation specific gear, reuse/reclaim combo rotations are testament to this fact.

We can argue around this point for a millenia, but the abilities back then lent themselves to a more engaging experience, even if you were optimizing the fun out of it.

Besides, much of this also ignores the simple fact that the ability suite back then was far more engaging than it is now, which matters significantly for content such as experts, where it isn't necessarily optimizing the fun out of it, but testing yourself.. Hence why I made this comment:

Sure we still have experts, but these do not hold a candle, because the gathering for them is still woefully simplified, as is the supporting ability toolkit, and this is a fundamental issue.. They are trying to make everyone happy by putting these systems on top.. Whether it's expert crafting or whatever else.. A lot of that is undone by the abilities supporting that content.

I can tell you simply that the developers have streamlined this specific content far more than what the players have optimized the fun out of the content.

Besides, with all due respect (and I mean it genuinely), when did you start playing anyway? (Like crafting-wise)

[Alice_Rivers]

I've been in game for a few years now and I would parrot the people here saying stay away from the forum until you stop having fun in game - They will suck any fun you're having out of it. When I want guides (even as a mentor) I tend to go to youtube and Icy Veins or you can just pop up in one of the ARR cities with a shout about something and chances are somebody will get back to you.

Chances are (especially if you play healer a lot) you'll start to get a feel for a lot of the common complaints here after Stormblood and Shadowbringers.

[Misutoraru]

That being said, what am I missing? I want to be filled in as to why the community feels this way. I want a better perspective so I can understand I don't want pointless baseless accusations; I want statements and I want a "i feel x way because of y," or "because of x change from however many years ago." I understand some players have been playing for over 10 years (which is a lot of time!) so I will be taking longtime players thoughts and criticisms to heart the most.

Thank you,
Ms. Emral

If you are having fun, then it is all it matters

I start out from 1.0 but I unsub between content from time to time. When the time you feel you need a break then just go for it. A break is always healthy that let you have a breath of fresh air.

Or you could keep the sub like my FC and just enjoy hanging out with friends.

It is when you turn MMO become a job you would start losing the fun.

Yes, there are some changes I dislike and I do not agree with. I simply move on to play something else.

I would also advice avoid the forum, if you want to discuss the game or the lore I found discord and the R forum better than here

[Azurarok]

There's a ton of things to do in this game and a lot of it is still genuinely fun to experience. The problems discussed in here don't really get felt until you catch up and run out of stuff you want to do (or when they change a job in a way you don't like)

As a ShB baby I recall someone shout chatting in Eulemore one night about the patch cadence during 5.4-5.5 and thinking "don't really see what's wrong with it, dude maybe needs to take a break", but nowadays I get what they were talking about.

The game's probably better as a place to visit, not to live in.

[PyurBlue]

That being said, what am I missing? I want to be filled in as to why the community feels this way. I want a better perspective so I can understand I don't want pointless baseless accusations; I want statements and I want a "i feel x way because of y," or "because of x change from however many years ago." I understand some players have been playing for over 10 years (which is a lot of time!) so I will be taking longtime players thoughts and criticisms to heart the most.

A game community, or any community, is rarely homogeneous. Different parts of the community will also be more or less visible at different times. While there is a lot of dissatisfaction being expressed at the moment, there are also content players like yourself.

My opinion on FF14 is that while I've found it worth playing it has always had design choices that I've disagreed with. I would like the game to move in a direction that appeals to me without aliening the people that enjoy the game as it is but I also accept that the game can't be built around my expectations alone. Unfortunately most recent changes take the game further away from what I'd like it to be, reducing my interest in it. I don't like heavily scripted encounters, which is essentially the only combat content that the game offers. You can memorize your way through anything and that hurts replayability and content engagement. With it being such a heavy part of the game's original design it might be unrealistic to remove it completely, but I'd at least like to have some place where I can go to get less scripted content. If the content has to be scripted then it would be nice to at least have interesting and varied classes to make up for the lack of content variety, but classes have been simplified and homogenized repeatedly. Making this worse is a lack of proper difficulty balancing. Healers feel redundant especially. Tanks are now almost entirely self sufficient and I find myself forgetting to even check their HP while running content. In dungeons I barely have to heal during pulls unless the party is first timers or very casual players. Bosses are hit or miss. Some dungeons bosses do so little damage that natural regen along with passive healing is enough to cover their attacks, though even the ones that do deal damage often only need an OGCD or two. In raids the presence of a second healer makes healing requirements trivial. The higher difficult content like savage and ultimate are supposed to offer an alternative to this, but after a while they fall victim to the scripted encounter design. At this point they just feel like repeating the same thing over and over until you clear. There is no excitement of real feeling of accomplishment anymore. They also require more commitment than duty finder which you can jump into at any time. I want to have dynamic challenges that make me think and react to things in real time without needing to gather 7 other players ideally.

So my opinion of the game has become that it is too scripted, lacking interesting content, and lacking interesting classes. I don't expect new players to have the same view as often as older players do, especially those with different gameplay goals like story, or achievement hunting. I still remember my new player experience. Early game was boring due to very simple low level classes but I looked forward to endgame raiding and when I got there it was a lot of fun at first. Very quickly the scripted nature of FF14 became apparent, but I still had room to optimize my own gameplay and try new classes which were more varied at the time. This could only last so long as I learned the other classes while they were also simplified over time and nothing was done to address the lack of replayability of content itself.