The current materia system needs to change

[Hiruke]

I'm unclear why the designers thought it was a good idea to have "tiers within tiers". So, I have this level 41+ or whatever piece of equipment that's fully spiritbonded. When I break it down, it can be anything (it could even be a boat! ...no, that would be better, too good, even), such as:

- A tier II whatever. Junk.
- A tier III whatever. Junk to me, maybe cool for other people.
- A tier IV whatever. Maybe good.

In the case of a tier IV, it could be:

- A useless, or widely undesired (same thing), materia. Junk.
- A good materia.

In the case of a good materia, it could be:

- A perfect materia. Perfect stats. YAY!
- Something less than that. Boo.

Of course, the whole thing is a million times worse when the materia only comes from stuff like primal weapons. So first you have to waste half your life getting a primal weapon to drop, then spiritbond it, then pray you don't get a grade II junk materia for your trouble.

Admittedly, most people don't suffer from a compulsion to x2/x3 meld perfect grade IVs. But for those of us who do, it's really, really annoying. I would strongly urge one of the following happen:

- Don't allow level 41+ gear to break down in grade II or III materia. Period.
- Abolish "tiers within tiers" so grade IV materia (for example) is always perfect stats. No deviation.

Of course, none of this speaks to how ridiculously low the chances are for a successful double meld, much less the LOLOLOL x5 melds the system supports. Obviously a piece of equipment with +100 of a stat is hideously broken, so why even make it an option? Then lock it away behind tons of time wasting gambling? What's even better is that you could potentially make items that are even stronger than a relic if you waste enough time trying to meld materia.

Speaking of useless nonsense, is there really any point to materia lower than grade IV? I mean, besides to get the achievement for Gambler's Crown. I have a hard time believing people would legitimately waste time double or triple melding equipment for levels 1-40, or basically anything that isn't best in slot at level 50, especially considering how much time you need to invest in breaking and remaking everything involved.

I think the idea of making materia more like FFVII has a lot of merit. Just take your materia and plug it into blah item. I understand the comments about how materia as it is now is driving the economy. And that's quite true! Especially because of the relic quest. I doubt quite so many class weapons and their materials would be selling if not for the fact that most of the time you try to double meld them, they blow up! It also helps that due to more terrible luck based factors (materia creation!) the demand of materia wildly exceeds supply.

Though, I don't know that I'm particularly in love with an economy geared toward the idea that we're all going to waste ridiculous amounts of time doing X thing, which seems to be a running theme in this game. Want militia gear? Do a few hundred Hamlets, you might get lucky. Want darklight gear? Do a few hundred AV/CC, you might get lucky. Want primal weapons? Keep grinding. Want good melded gear? Go grind gil, by farming/mining/crafting/getting lucky on Hamlet drops after you provision/whatever, or spend ludicrous amounts of time spiritbonding all your own stuff and farming/gathering/crafting your own items.

I guess everything is pretty easy, so long as you play religiously (i.e., you don't value your free time, and enjoy your second job in FFXIV).

Wouldn't it be nice if more things were rewards for skill-based actions, instead of just "putting the time in"? Putting the time in doesn't prove anything other than you can hit a button a billion times and not lose your sanity.

Honestly, I don't know or even care what the solution is, so long as it doesn't involve lots of luck and lots of time, because I'm pretty sure they thin the patience of the grand majority of any potential players of this game. I'm more than willing to put in effort, and potentially a lot of it, but I think we should focus more on skill-based objectives than the rampant luck-based objectives which currently litter the game. Otherwise, you have a (way, way) less than 1% chance of people liking your game. I don't think those are good odds.

[Amherst]

I'm unclear why the designers thought it was a good idea to have "tiers within tiers". So, I have this level 41+ or whatever piece of equipment that's fully spiritbonded. When I break it down, it can be anything (it could even be a boat! ...no, that would be better, too good, even), such as:

- A tier III whatever. Junk to me, maybe cool for other people.

First of all, +1 for the Family Guy reference. I really do miss how the show used to be before it came back.

I don't have much to add other than stating "I agree" (except for the bit about play time, I won't get into that), but I do feel the need to comment on tier III stuff. While sometimes it isn't useful, other times it serves to allow for lower risk double/triple meld attempts. As soon as the relic quest was patched in Touch of Rage IV prices jumped through the roof on Gungnir. Went from roughly 200k to 1-1.3 mil. On a standard plate belt a double meld of two ToR III was around 24% iirc, then was about the same as a double of IV for a triple of III. A triple III is usually 4-7 emnity more than a double IV, with each materia costing 75k-110k.

So it does have its uses. One attempt at a double IV amounts to six triple III attempts on Gugnir, even if you factor in the cost of the belt. It's just a matter of if people with the issue you mentioned can get over trying for "perfect" melds because honestly, I don't think anyone will get that IV x5 item we're all dreaming of.

[TaalAzura]

Honestly, i really like the learning spells from materia idea; I'm big into character progression.

[Duelle]

inventory.
Many different types of materia are a waste of space and time. This is significantly influenced by trends such as the 'Gambler's crown boom', the 'Garuda BLM burn boom' and most recently the 'Relic boom'.

Many materia are ignored because it is far more effective to stack raw stats (STR,PIE etc) instead. Many other materia are ignored because they are simply useless at this time (Chocobo down, Trent Root etc)

Agreed. Personally, I think this is just another instance of SE wanting variety for variety's sake, and it has had a less-than-positive effect on materia because of the way stats currently work. I'm still scratching my head over why developer time was wasted creating the status resistance materia, for example.

The system needs changes and to be less random. Problem is, if it's less random it becomes easier to control and manipulate. I don't care for in-game economies, it'd be fine by me, but some enjoy that aspect of the game. SE is between the rock and the hard place when it comes to materia.

[Viritess]

I don't really mind Materia exploding Gear and spirit bonding brining materia in. The econemy does need a life and death cycle, and stats are a good way to make it desireable. If it was all slotting then once you got good materia you'd be done. And you'd basiclly remove yourself from the econemy.

The exploding gear is part of what keeps folks returning for more gear. However i think the drop in percentage chance after the 1st meld is too steep, but i also think the amount of stat points the base stat materia gives is too high. Added with 4 tiers and four per tier, makes it a mess. And by having stat counts on so many matreria, the stats jump extreamly high with high end materia.

When AF gives you +7 st plus a small skill bonus, and with a single Tier 3 double meld you can get +30 st on top of the item, there is no real question which you want.

So my solution within the current system:
Keep the exploding chance for gear.
Percent chance per meld not such a drop after first meld: (what percent people think is fair or not is subject to opinion, this is probably the fairest middle ground i could imagine. Not sure if this would be the best percentages to use, but in essence less of a cliff drop to percentage and more of a sliding scale)
-!st meld: 100%
-2nd meld: 60% +5% for tier 1
-3rd meld: 40% +5% for tier 1
-4th meld 20% +5% for tier 1
-5th meld 10% +5% for tier 1

Reduce stat bonus from Materia especially base stat materia. Condence tiers:
For instance: Two Tiers of materia.
Gear 38+ = Tier "2" Materia
Gear 28-38= Tier 1 Materia
Gear 1-28= Random Catalyst Or Crafting Shards (This means You can SB some lower items for some catalyst to use on your melds, or sell it. Shards to use to make more, or sell it. Also a means for newer players who are just starting to get Catalysts, get crafting shards or make some extra gil

Tier 1 Materia for base stats: +2 +3 +4 +5 (These are for Stats like STR, VIT,MND,INT and PIE)
Tier 2 Materia for base stats: +6 +7 +8 +10 (again for base stats like line above ^ )

For non base stats, like Crit Hit, Magic Potency etc some of them accumulate effectiveness at differing rates. So they would need adjustment. But i would like the non base stats to have higher totals than stats ones, even if the non base stats stay as they are, but are congenced into 8 total point values.

WHat you gain, better overall chances for melds, but not an obcene amount of stats because of it. +50 in a base stats would still be alot, but thats chancing a fail 4 times. Each attempt more expencive. a double meld becomes more available on average, However the stat jump for even the best available materia is not so high.

By closing the huge gap between Tier 1 and tier 4 we currently have future content doesn't have to have such a jump in Boss stats to keep the challenge for such huge stat gaps.

The final change i'd like to see is two fold. Since they kind of go hand in hand. Not sure many would agree with this, but i belive it would make more use of some un-used materia. Not all the materia is useless, it is just useless compared to base stat materia. Some are not as effective currently (orange!) but could be in 2.0 (i hope so)

Firstly Add some additional places each materia can be added. Maybe STR can go on Hands, (class) weapons, Chest and Legs.

And secondly, Cap the amount of a single materia per Item. Personaly i'd like to see no more then 1 of each on any single gear pice.

-So if you have some Hands, you can put a single STR materia on them. Then, 1 Crit hit materia, then maybe 1 Piety Materia etc.

This entire package does a few things:

-Keeps gear in use and being spirit bonded for new materia.
--Thus keeping crafting as a gear outputter
-Keeps some risk in futher adding more materia.
--But removes the steep dropoff after the first meld.
-This adds more double and possibly triple melds to the general populace.
-This keeps 4 and 5 melds risky but doable.
-Lowers the gigantic stat jumps per meld due to the amount of stats on a single materia piece.
-Lowers the stat stacking per single item
--Which would encourage use of non stat materia
--And add use to lesser used materia
---And put at risk more different slotgear when searching for large amount of base stats, thus spreading the gil to multiple crafts. And possibly making the markets a little more inter-dependant.
-Lower the amount of materia carried by tier, but still give an amount of options for gear
--And also keep some less then perfect Materia in the system, so not every Spirit bond is an awesome materia stat count.


Thats how i would optimize the current materia system. A little friendlyer, but still risky for the best, a little more inclusive of multiple types of materia, thus easing some presure on single materia types, but also bringing up some prices for other materia (in essence you may spend the same for multiple materias, but not all of it on one type)

Stats are still a good bonus, but not so high as to not make dungeon drops still desireable.

P.S (You have to give a little to get a little, don't expect SE to give you higher chances with Stats on Tier 4 so high. And you can't expect folks to be happy with hugely low chances on just a second materia.)

[Taika]

I agree the system could be simplified somehow but for me it seems there's nothing wrong with the chances. First melds are always 100% and you don't really need anything more than that for any content. AF + GC gear + single melds = pretty decent and cheap gear set for any job.

If you want to go for double (tier III-IV) the chances are usually around 15-25% (those are from what I've personally done, not sure about highest IV+IV). That's really not too bad for that powerful stat increase. You can count the average risks and costs: if you have a 25% chance to succeed, you should be prepared for around 4 tries and not expect to succeed on first try.

I haven't done any extensive testing on melding, but I've done several double melds for myself and some LS mates and I just recently did a triple melded piece for myself. When I started the process I checked that the chance for first meld is 24% and for the second one it's 9,39%. I calculated that approximately every 4th of the double melds would succeed (in the end 15/43 = 34,8% did) and 11th triple meld could succeed (in reality 15th did). The combined success rate should have been around 2,25% so I prepared for 45 tries. I succeeded on my 43th. In the end, a triple melded III+III+IV piece ended up costing me 5,3M which is definitely not too expensive for such a huge upgrade. And no, I'm not super rich, I just don't feel like this game should be throwing amazing gear at me for free either.

[Viritess]

I agree the system could be simplified somehow but for me it seems there's nothing wrong with the chances. First melds are always 100% and you don't really need anything more than that for any content. AF + GC gear + single melds = pretty decent and cheap gear set for any job.

If you want to go for double (tier III-IV) the chances are usually around 15-25% (those are from what I've personally done, not sure about highest IV+IV). That's really not too bad for that powerful stat increase. You can count the average risks and costs: if you have a 25% chance to succeed, you should be prepared for around 4 tries and not expect to succeed on first try.

I haven't done any extensive testing on melding, but I've done several double melds for myself and some LS mates and I just recently did a triple melded piece for myself. When I started the process I checked that the chance for first meld is 24% and for the second one it's 9,39%. I calculated that approximately every 4th of the double melds would succeed (in the end 15/43 = 34,8% did) and 11th triple meld could succeed (in reality 15th did). The combined success rate should have been around 2,25% so I prepared for 45 tries. I succeeded on my 43th. In the end, a triple melded III+III+IV piece ended up costing me 5,3M which is definitely not too expensive for such a huge upgrade. And no, I'm not super rich, I just don't feel like this game should be throwing amazing gear at me for free either.

I can't really discuss the later part of your post, since numbers are numbers and for every early success theres likely someone who burned twice the gil. Even if the %chances didnt drop to 1/4th of the first meld at the second meld, randomness will happen. But if theres up to 10 less of a stat per materia, then a double meld is basiclly what is currently a single meld (assuming the best materia is +10 instead of +20).

As far as the first point, while that may be all you "need" for the current hardest fights. Thats certainly unlikely to get you into say, Garuda for some LS'es. And certainly not likely via PUG. The AF most people are going pass on is the ones that there is no real quality replacement for. (DRG - Boots for example) Experiences differ, this may be one of those times.

If 5.3 mil was the price to obtain your triple. Perhaps look at the price for the double, and look at the amount of slots you need to double. Then As the X amount of Jobs you'd be asked/needed to take. If you have a static where you are X job only, thats great. If not, you need to be whats needed at the time. Which is even more double melds.

The issue i think is for the amount of stat gain that can theoreticlly be had (+100 stat) And the most likely found max (+60) and any amount among that needs to be taken into account when they make a Bossfight. If the Theoretical Max was (+50 Stat and the likely was more around (+30 or +40 since odds are slightly higher) then i think stat gap, and the amount of better outfitted Jobs the entire playerbase could bring would be in a better spot.

Not to mention with a tighter spread of stats, Even a skilled group who may lack the resources (or luck) for better melds could still pull out a win by the skin of their teeth. Since the High point for top end melds would be a little closer to the AF "Average"

My opinion is a single meld with +9 or +10 Should be a repectable bonus, but up to +20 should be risk. Less risk then 24%, but +20 in a stat should equal some risk.

[Taika]

As far as the first point, while that may be all you "need" for the current hardest fights. Thats certainly unlikely to get you into say, Garuda for some LS'es.

You can do Garuda just fine without any double melds, and same goes to pretty much all the other content in the game. If people aren't accepting you to a party because you have "only" single melds, the fault is in the people, not the meld system.

If 5.3 mil was the price to obtain your triple. Perhaps look at the price for the double, and look at the amount of slots you need to double. Then As the X amount of Jobs you'd be asked/needed to take.

I'm not sure if I understand what you're saying. As I previously stated, single melds + GC gear + AF should be enough to clear most of the content in the game well (speed runs and some relic fights might be a different matter, can't comment on those as I haven't done them). You definitely do not need several double+ melds for all of your jobs.

I love gear planning (yes I know, it's a bit silly and all my LS mates laugh at me and my spreadsheets ) and have done gear plans for several jobs, both my own and for my friends. What I've noticed is that for most of the jobs (at least those I have experience with) you don't really have to even meld any more than 1-3 slots to have a really good gear. On BRD for example you can even reach stat caps for your two main stats with only two double melded (2xIII or III+IV) pieces and have enough ACC for anything.

The issue i think is for the amount of stat gain that can theoreticlly be had (+100 stat)

Personally, I've never even seen any quadmelded piece in use. That's why I don't find this theoretical possibility as an issue.

And the most likely found max (+60) and any amount among that needs to be taken into account when they make a Bossfight.

I remember reading that fights are balanced for single melds, and that's what they seem to me. I will try to find a source for this, don't believe it's just my imagination.

I don't know, I just don't see the issue. I feel that it's really easy and cheap to gear your job decently at the moment, especially after all the free GC gear with good set / sanction bonuses. Personally, I have three jobs geared (BRD, WHM, MNK) and at the moment I have only two (double) melded pieces on BRD, one (double melded) on WHM and one (triple melded) on MNK. For now I haven't faced anything in this game that I couldn't beat because of my gear.

[Molly_Millions]

Sure, it takes time to get good gear, but I don't want you to get better gear than I, when I'm willing to put in work for it and you're not. It's that simple.

If you want easy to obtain gear, use single melded stuff, or AF. There's nothing wrong with that. I tanked Ifrit successfully last night in a reindeer suit, you don't NEED uber-gear to get things done. But you bet you're ass that those of us willing to put in hours of work for awesome gear should have MUCH better gear than those who are not willing. The materia system is currently balanced as such.