Is there a point in caring about the game?

[User202503201232]

But when I looked more at how crafters were, versus how they are now from my own experience,

Casual (in terms of raiding) players definitely had a great option in crafting if they didn't want to raid. It took so much time and was so rewarding. You could unironically be a crafter main in HW and maybe SB. It's a whole stream of content that they just gutted completely.

Not everyone wanted to raid and it's OK. I had fun just making Ironworks gear to sell back then because it was so rewarding for the effort you put in. And the system had so much depth that it feels like there is always something new to learn right around the corner.

Even if we reverted back to HW systems I think it's already too late. There are not just crafting simulators now but fully optimal crafting solvers that will find the minimum step rotation.

https://www.raphael-xiv.com/

With some little extra effort you could also easily alter the code to take into account conditions and use that to solve expert recipes for every proc you get.

The sense of discovery is just completely gone now from all the game's content, and it's not just SE's fault but also because the community has grown so reliant on third party tools. There is a counter to this and it's to produce innovative content that people don't know how to optimize yet. But that's probably something you can't expect from SE.

[Kaurhz]

Casual (in terms of raiding) players definitely had a great option in crafting if they didn't want to raid. It took so much time and was so rewarding. You could unironically be a crafter main in HW and maybe SB. It's a whole stream of content that they just gutted completely.

Not everyone wanted to raid and it's OK. I had fun just making Ironworks gear to sell back then because it was so rewarding for the effort you put in. And the system had so much depth that it feels like there is always something new to learn right around the corner.

Even if we reverted back to HW systems I think it's already too late. There are not just crafting simulators now but fully optimal crafting solvers that will find the minimum step rotation.

https://www.raphael-xiv.com/

With some little extra effort you could also easily alter the code to take into account conditions and use that to solve expert recipes for every proc you get.

The sense of discovery is just completely gone now from all the game's content, and it's not just SE's fault but also because the community has grown so reliant on third party tools. There is a counter to this and it's to produce innovative content that people don't know how to optimize yet. But that's probably something you can't expect from SE.

Definitely agreed..

Generally speaking it is too late unless they seriously gutter it and built it from the ground-up using mini-game-esque abilities as the core of the system, rather than using it like something you could learn and do insane things with like crafting Twinsilk on level 15, and/or reaching a 999 step count. That, in my opinion should be the core. Like, realistically with the right abilities, crafting could function on as little as around 11-14 abilities and still be exceptionally fun to engage with (but alas we know that won't happen), even if it was utterly broken to do those things, you really had to deepen your understanding -- and the game rewarded you for it with insane things like that.

It had a lot really, even if you didn't want to raid, you could still pretty actively do content like Coils undersized, they were pretty fun, and they gave players a lot to work with between Neo-Aetherstones. Diadem for as fatally flawed as it was, still gave some people a lot to do as well, and really sent home FC-based content.

Ironworks crafting was absolutely peak, it generally was anyway, I had an alt back then which I kept on entry standard stats, and just bank a significant amount of Gil selling gear progression items, before Scrip and co., took over from 60+. Same with crafting items like Star Velvet, and then you even had the accessible crafted versions with +5 item level released later on like Sky Rat and Sky Pirate gear... I told myself this expansion I would neuter my own stats by going with pure Scrip for everything end-game, but can't even be enthusiastic about that because it's just so shallow, that the only discrepancy between that and going completely bonkers is an additional 1-2 HQ materials from dissolvents.

You can definitely rework something like Raph for expert recipes, if you want to find the on-step optimal ability to use. These days there isn't really much discussion, it is just whoever gets the first-best rotation out of Raph, then it's a straight C+P.. Someone said crafting is still one of the more nuanced versions of any MMO, and it just might be, but functionally it doesn't even matter as the end result is just press 2 buttons and be done with it.

I think the problem really just stems from both the third-party aspect and with SE.. When you deliver the same rote content, with the same foundational systems, then it becomes less about the sense of discovery and more about just achieving the fastest result, everything else be damned.. Now obviously third-party is the reason for that, but we honestly wouldn't be in that state if they weren't so risk averse.. Since it's just a matter of applying that blueprint to the update.. Same with guide-making, you will never really find guides like OG crafter/gatherer guides which went in-depth into the intricate systems (thanks Ingenuity), it's just a matter of template and then adjust source material, e.g., things like Desynthesis.

[Jojoya]

The sense of discovery is just completely gone now from all the game's content, and it's not just SE's fault but also because the community has grown so reliant on third party tools. There is a counter to this and it's to produce innovative content that people don't know how to optimize yet. But that's probably something you can't expect from SE.

Or players could break their habit of immediately going to the outside tools/guides, choosing to discover the new content through their own experience instead.

I doubt any game developer is going to be able to come up with innovative systems that stymie the third party tools for more than a brief period at release. What's created by code can be changed/revealed by someone writing additional code.

I'd also say it's not SE's fault that players have become so reliant on third party tools. It's a habit they've usually brought with them from other games they've played.

IF they don't like the way it's impacted game experience, then it's up to them to move away from using the third party tools and content creator guides.

Yeah, to play other games while being subbed. Devs never offered us to unsub, just very generously suggested taking a break while still paying.

I have yet to see them ask any player to keep paying while they're on a long break.

That's the player's choice to keep paying, not a request of SE. And most of the time, it's because they're too obsessed with owning a house they wouldn't be using but are too selfish to give it up so an active player would get a chance to own a house.

But it's up to them if they think the house is worth the $90 or however much they'll be paying to keep it while they aren't playing the game.