Thread: Does FFXIV Hate Politics Now? [Spoilers for Dawntrail 7.1]

Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

"White savior" is a term referring to American imperialism and the systemic erasure of indigenous culture, which had been deemed as savage and sinful by the American people. There is a faction in Final Fantasy XIV that engaged in this behavior all throughout the game's story—it's Garlemald. Hell, Gaius's signature scene is one long "Kill the Indian, Save the Man" speech.

Lyse is not a "white savior". She is white-skinned and heroic. That is not the same thing.

Stormblood ends with Lyse standing in front of all her western nation state allies (plus Hien and Yugiri) on a balcony looking down at resistance fighters while a flag waves proudly in the wind. The Ala Mhigan anthem plays. Meanwhile the only actual Ala Mhigan there is Raubhan, the general of a western state. There are no other major characters from Ala Mhigo (a parallel the ending has with the expansion as a whole). Lyse becomes the de facto leader of a country she hasn't lived in for the vast majority of her life.

Okay, so first off: None of that is remotely relevant to what I said. Second, Raubahn being the general of the Eorzean Alliance does not negate the fact that he, like Lyse, is a native Ala Mhigan, born and raised in the nation he is trying to liberate. Third, and most importantly, the legitimate governing body of Ala Mhigo was ground to dust over two consecutive wars—first by the people of Ala Mhigo in order to oust a tyrant king, then by the invading Garleans to subjugate the victors. The establishment of a new government began in patch 4.1, with Lyse representing the Ala Mhigan resistance alongside various leaders and elders from other factions in Gyr Abania. And by the end of that patch, despite the actions of the Qalyana Broodmother, there is no indication that this new government was disbanded. Also, Raubahn was swiftly selected—by that same government—to be the commander of the Ala Mhigan military, making Lyse subordinate to him.

So even if you were correct about Ala Mhigo having a "de facto ruler", it'd be Raubahn. Raubahn, who was 25 years old when he fled Gyr Abania as a refugee, and is now 44. Meaning that by the very metric you seem to believe is important in separating "real" Ala Mhigans from... Lyse I suppose, Raubahn is indeed an Ala Mhigan man.

But again, none of this is relevant to the fact that Lyse isn't a white savior. And frankly, I would ask you to stop appropriating the real suffering of Native Americans to complain about a fictional woman you don't like, but somehow I get the feeling there was never any sincerity behind your arguing to begin with.

Originally Posted by Hallarem

At this point I don't know if you both are trolling or not, but I'll bite.

Ehem. You do realize that Hydaelyn has no skincolor based racism right? It's mostly actual different races or nations going at each other, alá Ishgardians vs Au Ra for looking like dragons. Gridania being racist against Duskwights and Keepers of the Moon ( as much as SE is trying to pretend thats not a thing they wrote )

You do realize Lyse is Ala Mhigan right? You do realize that if you fly through Gyr Abania, even by your twisted logic of trying to troll / insert real world problems into a fantasy game that there are ton of "white people" who are also Ala Mhigan right? This is the Tural colonialism conversation all over again

This argument has never stood for the simple reason that those stories are consumed and experienced by people not part of their universe but living in ours, and written by people also living in ours, often touching on real subjects and themes that are found in ours. Thinking that there is an impenetrable barrier between both is wishful thinking in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

Okay, so first off: None of that is remotely relevant to what I said. Second, Raubahn being the general of the Eorzean Alliance does not negate the fact that he, like Lyse, is a native Ala Mhigan, born and raised in the nation he is trying to liberate. Third, and most importantly, the legitimate governing body of Ala Mhigo was ground to dust over two consecutive wars—first by the people of Ala Mhigo in order to oust a tyrant king, then by the invading Garleans to subjugate the victors. The establishment of a new government began in patch 4.1, with Lyse representing the Ala Mhigan resistance alongside various leaders and elders from other factions in Gyr Abania. And by the end of that patch, despite the actions of the Qalyana Broodmother, there is no indication that this new government was disbanded. Also, Raubahn was swiftly selected—by that same government—to be the commander of the Ala Mhigan military, making Lyse subordinate to him.

So even if you were correct about Ala Mhigo having a "de facto ruler", it'd be Raubahn. Raubahn, who was 25 years old when he fled Gyr Abania as a refugee, and is now 44. Meaning that by the very metric you seem to believe is important in separating "real" Ala Mhigans from... Lyse I suppose, Raubahn is indeed an Ala Mhigan man.

I said Raubhan was Ala Mhigan. I don't know why you think otherwise.

I didn't say him being a western general negates him being Ala Mhigan. He is Ala Mhigan, and notably, a western general. It would be foolish to gloss over that fact.

Contrary to your phrasing, Lyse was not raised in Ala Mhigo.

Lyse is a de facto leader of Ala Mhigo by the end of StB.
You're free to interpret things differently but that's just your opinion.

You didn't address the fact that there is not a single major Ala Mhigan character who is present in the scene I described.

But again, none of this is relevant to the fact that Lyse isn't a white savior. And frankly, I would ask you to stop appropriating the real suffering of Native Americans to complain about a fictional woman you don't like, but somehow I get the feeling there was never any sincerity behind your arguing to begin with.

It sounds like you have hatred for the fact that white savior narratives are present in fiction. I suggest brushing up on the history of the trope - it isn't specific to Native Americans at all, but has been used in the context of non-white people all across the globe (south east Asia, Africa, the Middle East, etc).

I don't like your tone or aggression. Given how quickly you've flown off the handle and started throwing accusations around, I think you're just trying to shut down a conversation you don't really understand. I'm going to stop taking to you now.

Isn't actually kinda a little racist to assume Lyse is a "White Savior" just because she's white? Nobody would even be saying the phrase "white savior" or "White imperialist" if she were as dark as Raubahn. It's less about Lyse being white, and more about her not being fit for the role, other than "Was a character in the Scions that we know". Hell, M'Naago was more deserving of the role, tbh.

That's not even getting into the fact that any plotline involving Ala Mhigo should have actually involved Minfilia, considering how her father was a Garlean traitor who was allied with the Resistance...
But the fanbase hated Minfillia, so, well... we all know how that ended. So we get Yda being awkwardly bootstrapped into Lyse, to have a Scion with a personal investment in the Ala Mhigan Resistance.

Originally Posted by JohnLakeside

No joke, I watch that cutscene at least once every two weeks because I love it and there are tons of Ala Mhigans on the balcony. What are you even talking about? You can see them singing and their mouths moving. Compare that to the non-Ala Mhigans like Aymeric and you'll see the non-Ala Mhigans aren't singing. Hell, Arenvald is waving the Ala Mhigan flag right next to Lyse.

Are you referring to the nameless Ala Mhigan soldiers of the resistance or to major or minor characters?

Originally Posted by JohnLakeside

Okay, some of them are nameless, but Arnevald isn't. He's Ala Mhigan. Actually, how many named Ala Mhigan combatants are there? That might be an issue itself, but it doesn't give any weight to your claim that Lyse is a white savior. Idk why you're being so critical about the main character of the expansion having a main character moment. Seriously, would you be calling Lyse a white savior if she wasn't white skinned?

Arenvald is fine, he's an enjoyable enough minor character although he doesn't have much going on throughout the main expansion. Is he the only one?

Originally Posted by Exmo

Are you referring to the nameless Ala Mhigan soldiers of the resistance or to major or minor characters?

There are tons of "white Ala Mhigans" your logic doesnt hold water even by your own twisted real world inserting of a square into a triangle hole yet you keep trying to ram it in.

Google white savior narrative. Its got nothing to do with what happens in Stormblood and literally nothing you say can twist it into that category of a story because its real world logic and doesnt slot into a fantasy world like this. Try again.

Is Lyses leadership role unearned nepotism? Sure. Is she a white savior? No. Again. Its a war between nations. Eorzea does NOT have skincolor based racism nor does the world in the game at large. Actual RACE based racism does exist in the game.