Yuweyawata Field Station is so wrong

[Valence]

^ This, many times over.

Additionally, I think what we're seeing from these players being walled by 'supposedly easy' mechanics are the consequences of removing too much job difficulties. For players (at least on paper) to stay 'engaged', that missing difficulty had to be moved elsewhere. Encounter design becomes the next logical 'lever' to be pulled further down. But given how they design modern encounters, how far can they really use the same template before everything starts turning from "Stand on X or get slapped" to "Stand on X or explode, Idc"?

If the job also shares that burden of complexity, at the very least SE can once again have the option to tone the encounter difficulty down. This way even if players are bad at playing their fave job, the worst they could do is playing their rotation not optimally, but still able to stay in the fray not getting one-two shot if they make mistake(s).

I'll bounce back on that, because when I do compare with HW/SB runs, but especially HW, we sure had more dungeon failures and struggles but they were due to the battle system that was a lot more demanding (tanking positioning properly, not taking crits from behind, not running out of MP because tank isnt mitigating and/or healer/both not managing MP well and being wasteful, DPS too low running the party resources dry over time, losing aggro, etc), but the thing is, sometimes people died, sure, but it was rarely due to encounter mechanics themselves. No binary "you didn't stand on X so you explode idc". I actually don't remember a lot of actual walls and blockers for people, even though they could struggle a lot more throughout the dungeons comparatively to today.

For instance in comparison, I've stumbled in the Cenote dungeon with a healer that kept dying to all the boss mechanics, all three of them (I think this is the most challenging dungeon of leveling in DT). Always the same mechanics got them. Told them to follow me/us, they tried, sometimes it worked out but sometimes not. They were just too busy healing or dealing with their own things. Most of those mechanics oneshot them, or damaged/vulned them enough that the next one would kill them. Since the tank was barely better, sometimes they also died to things that can actually kill a tank (like knockbacks off the platform, etc). That was one of the few runs that I notice that it actually walled/blocked people with DDR mechanics.

And in their case, nobody can look me in the eye and tell me they were watching netflix, when they were acutely aware that they kept wiping the group again and again, and literally crying in chat and apologizing. Actually amazed they stuck to the end, because when this happens more often than not, people just silently leave the run in shame.

[Arohk]

here is a clip from Thomas Mahler, and his opinion about game difficulty.

https://youtu.be/Dwo5uoRPqJE?t=532

[Mawlzy]

here is a clip from Thomas Mahler, and his opinion about game difficulty.

https://youtu.be/Dwo5uoRPqJE?t=532

Would you agree his key point is that for a game to be interesting "you have to overcome challenge"?

If so, it sounds like for you and other skilled players, MSQ dungeons are insufficiently challenging.

Given that the game caters to players of all different skills, the solution is surely dual-track difficulty?

Why do you object to this suggestion?

[Arohk]

Would you agree his key point is that for a game to be interesting "you have to overcome challenge"?

If so, it sounds like for you and other skilled players, MSQ dungeons are insufficiently challenging.

Given that the game caters to players of all different skills, the solution is surely dual-track difficulty?

Why do you object to this suggestion?

Yes, overcoming a challenge is the key part of gaming and progressing difficulty on higher levels is as old as gaming itself. I do raid Savage but not ultimate, i have one clear in UCOB, but i lack the time and mental energy after work to try another.
What do you mean with dual-track difficulty? an even easier easy mode for normal content? i have already said that i don't care and if people wanted to skip all combat all together thats is also fine, but then you should also get no loot or other rewards.
But you see, this game FORCES you to play the old dungeons and trials over and over to reach your weekly tomestone cap or other rewards, and can that be at least somewhat entertaining instead of a snoozefest?

[Mawlzy]

Yes, overcoming a challenge is the key part of gaming and progressing difficulty on higher levels is as old as gaming itself. I do raid Savage but not ultimate, i have one clear in UCOB, but i lack the time and mental energy after work to try another.
What do you mean with dual-track difficulty? an even easier easy mode for normal content? i have already said that i don't care and if people wanted to skip all combat all together thats is also fine, but then you should also get no loot or other rewards.
But you see, this game FORCES you to play the old dungeons and trials over and over to reach your weekly tomestone cap or other rewards, and can that be at least somewhat entertaining instead of a snoozefest?

Eh? The game doesn't FORCE you to cap tomes, that's a choice.

But yes, dual-track would allow you to enjoy the experience more by making old trials and dungeons more challenging for those who want it.

Less-skilled players would be challenged by an easier mode.

One huge advantage for you is that never again will you be compelled to play with the Netflix-watching, Cure1-spamming, undergeared level 100 WHM who cannot read their tooltips or open their eyes while playing.

[Arohk]

Eh? The game doesn't FORCE you to cap tomes, that's a choice.

If your goal is to clear Savage and have good gear, to do so, it is not a choice, because half your stuff comes from Tomes, and the other half from Raids.

[Mesarthim]

That horse you're on is pretty high, perhaps coming down might make you seem less sarcastic. Even me, someone who finds zero difficulty with dungeons, can agree to at least extend an olive branch and give an easier mode for dungeons (if only for the story). It would come at a price (your rewards, or much less of them). If people do not wish to use the tools given to them (npcs) or cannot do it even with them then a line has to be drawn somewhere. If you give even the skilled players a spammable rewarding mode then of course they'd use it.

Making everything only difficult for the least skilled makes for a very boring combat game for everyone else in PvE.

[Mawlzy]

That horse you're on is pretty high, perhaps coming down might make you seem less sarcastic. Even me, someone who finds zero difficulty with dungeons, can agree to at least extend an olive branch and give an easier mode for dungeons (if only for the story). It would come at a price (your rewards, or much less of them). If people do not wish to use the tools given to them (npcs) or cannot do it even with them then a line has to be drawn somewhere. If you give even the skilled players a spammable rewarding mode then of course they'd use it.

Making everything only difficult for the least skilled makes for a very boring combat game for everyone else in PvE.

There is nothing more boring for the less-skilled than not being able to progress the MSQ at all. This is particularly true for those who coped perfectly well for years, then the increasing difficulty stymied them.

I have provided a solution.

As to high horses, those looking down on players less-skilled than themselves would appear to be the ones engaging in equine elevation. I have no idea why, in threads like this, they have to be so damn condescending.

[Mesarthim]

equine elevation. I have no idea why, in threads like this, they have to be so damn condescending.

That right there. If you want condescending you'll probably get it if you keep talking to people like that. While I do partially agree with some things you've said you are very quickly dismissed otherwise with your sarcastic tones. Normal people don't talk like this. I genuinely cannot even make suggestions because you'll just get mad I guess.

[Valence]

Edit on reading that discord message: it's pretty trite overall and has been there since forever. You can detect the core of the message, or the face beneath the mask if you will, as soon as you read the words "pulling your own weight" or "effort put in the game", and I'm afraid it's tied to a true political divide IRL that goes beyond just this game. It's a matter of core values rather than gaming standards.
Jeder nach seinen Fähigkeiten, jedem nach seinen Bedürfnissen

That right there. If you want condescending you'll probably get it if you keep talking to people like that. While I do partially agree with some things you've said you are very quickly dismissed otherwise with your sarcastic tones. Normal people don't talk like this. I genuinely cannot even make suggestions because you'll just get mad I guess.

I'm genuinely puzzled by this statement, as I have the exact same feeling reading the other side of the discussion...