FRU has been cleared without Tanks!

[Maltothoris]

Heres the thing. The ramuh ex wasn't even wide spread. It was only recently discovered at the time the video was posted and theh clamped down fast.

[Valence]

So, what's the threshold of affected population required for a change to occur then? And more importantly, even if the affected minority is "only a handful of people", does this legitimize the actual design and negates the issue?

[Valence]

If nothing like that has even happened to the healer role, then what is this 1k page healer strike thread about? And all the traction it got through multiple online media at the time?

[Mikey_R]

If nothing like that has even happened to the healer role, then what is this 1k page healer strike thread about? And all the traction it got through multiple online media at the time?

Have healers, in the vast majority of PF groups and even statics, been excluded from joining parties?

Now, I haven't read that entire thread, but from what I have gathered from the start, healers find the role unengaging and they don't feel needed in content. The first, unengaging role, that is sorted by rehashing their kit, give them different DPS options, Scholar can be a DoT healer etc. But that is a separate issue to the one where healers don't feel needed. Paradoxically, the role that was not included, does not indicate an issue with that role itself, it is an issue in the rest of the variables.

To put this into context, go back to Ramuh EX, if things were as they were on release, it would have been the norm for tanks to be replaced by DPS, or one DPS and 1 healer for safety. It wasn't the tanks fault that they were going to be excluded. The issue was the mechanics around Titan Egi. Titan Egi was the problem, not tanks, hence why Titan Egi got changed. Now, to be clear, this is all because Titan Egi could completely ignore the tank swap mechanic, you don't have the fail states of a tank failing to swap, or getting enough orbs, which also leads into more orbs being available than would normally be, making those mechanics easier as well. It was just easier to exclude a tank.

Going onto Healerless Ultimates/Savage/Extreme. The issue is not that healers aren't needed, you objectively need healing, it is just that the fight and other role kits are strong enough to invalidate the healer. It isn't the healer's fault they are excluded, it is everything else, whether that is too much healing on tanks or not enough damage going out that they cannot keep up. So, just like with the tank example above, the issue isn't healers, it is what is left. The difference, however, between this case and the one above, you aren't seeing more and more groups getting rid of healers, because it is still easier and safer to bring a healer. Hopefully, you can notice the difference, in one case, it was safer and easier to exclude the role that was being left out, in the other, it is safer and easier to INCLUDE the role that is being left out. The only reason healers are being left out is for the challenge.

Going into more casual content, if the healer feels useless, again, that isn't an issue with the healer, it is an issue with the environment they are in. Whether there is not enough damage going out or it can be too easily healed by other roles. It is the same as above. However, I split this up because the skill level required to negate the healer's efforts is lower. This also means that higher skilled players are going to have a much easier time invalidating the healer, making the issue seem worse than it actually is for that demographic. Go to lower skilled players and the issue isn't as prevalent. You are going to have that DPS get hit by an AoE, that tank might not mitigate as well as they should, the DPS might not be optimising damage as well making things take longer to kill (and thereby eating into resources). Again, for your average group, it is safer to go with a healer to account for those mistakes, than a group of skilled players who do not run into those issues.

Hopefully this sheds a light onto the differences between what happened to the tanks in Ramuh EX and the healer role as it is now. The same reasoning can then be used for the topic of this thread, the tankless clear of FRU. Is this an issue with the tank role? No, it is an issue with the environment. Is this going to be come the norm? No, it is still safer to bring tanks to the encounter. If there was an encounter that was explicitly harder with a healer, then you could compare that to the Ramuh EX scenario, however, that has never been the case.

This shouldn't come as a shock either, tank, healers and encounter design are all interlinked and there is an every changing balance somewhere that moves based on content and player skill level.

[Supersnow845]

Is that not arguably worse for the healer?

At least with titan if a party chose to exclude the tank you knew upfront. A healer has to play the roulette of “am I going to contribute to my party today”

Like maybe I’m just weird but I’d genuinely rather have the roulette pop and go “sorry tank is of above average competency your participation is not needed” then figure out half way into the first pull that I’m not needed

Titan egi tanking required about as much skill as no healer casual content, it’s a bit rich to pass one off as “find worse players” when there 100% were parties back then doing two tank clears because people didn’t feel comfortable learning titan egi or the SMN didn’t want the responsibility. Were those tanks excluded supposed to just find worse players willing to do tank strats despite them actually being worse than titan egi

[Mikey_R]

Is that not arguably worse for the healer?

Depends on your perspective.

At least with titan if a party chose to exclude the tank you knew upfront. A healer has to play the roulette of “am I going to contribute to my party today”

I mean, a healer is always going to contribute at the very least by doing damage, so it shouldn't be a case of whether you are going to contribute or not, it is a matter of how much you need to contribute.

Like maybe I’m just weird but I’d genuinely rather have the roulette pop and go “sorry tank is of above average competency your participation is not needed” then figure out half way into the first pull that I’m not needed

With random groups, anything can happen, the DPS might do a dumb and die, or even the tank has a lapse of judgement. Your role as a healer then is to smooth out the run incase anything like that happens.

Titan egi tanking required about as much skill as no healer casual content, it’s a bit rich to pass one off as “find worse players” when there 100% were parties back then doing two tank clears because people didn’t feel comfortable learning titan egi or the SMN didn’t want the responsibility. Were those tanks excluded supposed to just find worse players willing to do tank strats despite them actually being worse than titan egi

Egi tanking was, stick Titan in one spot and just baby him with heals, both from the SMN (Sustain) and healers (remembering, the AoE heals did affect the pets at this time). They already took less damage just for being an Egi and they didn't have to worry about the tank buster deleting them just because they didn't have the stacks. It was about as easy as you could make it. You also know that, given time, it would have become the norm. The tank players who were excluded would have then been told to play DPS or Healer. As for a SMN who didn't want to, you get a second SMN who did, the first SMN would then be a DPS SMN, the second the tank SMN.

[HyperiusUltima]

Depends on your perspective.
I mean, a healer is always going to contribute at the very least by doing damage, so it shouldn't be a case of whether you are going to contribute or not, it is a matter of how much you need to contribute.

When it's the only contribution they're giving? This is why Healers are actually the LEAST played job. Because it's BORING to press one button over and over. I've played even AST/SCH in dungeons and when you're paired with the likes of WAR? You sit there and just DPS because the WAR has all the tools to keep themselves alive without fail. Same could be said of PLD/GNB to an extent. If your healing isn't needed, then healing is not a contributor - which is the whole point of the Role's existence.

With random groups, anything can happen, the DPS might do a dumb and die, or even the tank has a lapse of judgement. Your role as a healer then is to smooth out the run incase anything like that happens.

Yeah? That's where we're further shoved into this "babysitting" role. Where if something actually does go horribly wrong, we actually get agency. You can talk about this from Dungeons all the way to Savage: Healers are the "In Case of Emergency, Break Glass" equivalent. But if for some reason your DF runs don't have this? Then they're back to the aforementioned above.

Egi tanking was, stick Titan in one spot and just baby him with heals, both from the SMN (Sustain) and healers (remembering, the AoE heals did affect the pets at this time). They already took less damage just for being an Egi and they didn't have to worry about the tank buster deleting them just because they didn't have the stacks. It was about as easy as you could make it. You also know that, given time, it would have become the norm. The tank players who were excluded would have then been told to play DPS or Healer. As for a SMN who didn't want to, you get a second SMN who did, the first SMN would then be a DPS SMN, the second the tank SMN.

Then tell me how this equates to how Healers should just "Play a DPS or Tank"? If people make the decision to make pre-mades, then they will do so and push this, making DF Qs longer because of the "optimization". If anything it's akin to doing the path of least resistance which is a constant for this game whenever it comes to content, no matter how you shake your head at it.

Also for the record, you needed an equally skilled SMN to pull of Titan Egi tank back then because if your pet management was off? Titan would eat the dust and you'd be looking closer to a wipe - same for healers.

[Mikey_R]

When it's the only contribution they're giving? This is why Healers are actually the LEAST played job. Because it's BORING to press one button over and over...

Gameplay is a separate issue I have already stated is something that need work, but isn't the reason healers get left out.

I've played even AST/SCH in dungeons and when you're paired with the likes of WAR? You sit there and just DPS because the WAR has all the tools to keep themselves alive without fail. Same could be said of PLD/GNB to an extent. If your healing isn't needed, then healing is not a contributor - which is the whole point of the Role's existence.

So, Warrior, and to a lesser extent PLD and GNB have too much healing it invalidates your role. So it is the environment the healer is trying to be apart of that makes you feel not required. Which is exactly what I have been saying.

Yeah? That's where we're further shoved into this "babysitting" role. Where if something actually does go horribly wrong, we actually get agency. You can talk about this from Dungeons all the way to Savage: Healers are the "In Case of Emergency, Break Glass" equivalent. But if for some reason your DF runs don't have this? Then they're back to the aforementioned above.

So, hypothetical, all healing is gone from all other jobs, healers are the only ones who heal. Aren't you then babysitting everyone else? The role is quite literally look after everyone else's HP. Or, is it only baby sitting if someone makes a mistake, which can still happen in a scenario where you have more healing requirement.

Then tell me how this equates to how Healers should just "Play a DPS or Tank"?

It doesn't, that is the point. Different scenarios with different outcomes.

If people make the decision to make pre-mades, then they will do so and push this, making DF Qs longer because of the "optimization". If anything it's akin to doing the path of least resistance which is a constant for this game whenever it comes to content, no matter how you shake your head at it.

But that hasn't happened. Those who run with no healer probably ran with a healer in the past and changed it up. They weren't queuing into the DF so no change in numbers there. But, as I said, healers are still useful in DF to smooth things out.

Also for the record, you needed an equally skilled SMN to pull of Titan Egi tank back then because if your pet management was off? Titan would eat the dust and you'd be looking closer to a wipe - same for healers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjPiQ2Q_bCQ

SMN with Vit accessories, place him where the tank would normally sit, babysit his HP. Easy. No worries about tank swaps, no worries about the tanks cleaving each other before, during or after the swap, dps/healers know where not to stand etc. It was just all around easier.

[Supersnow845]

Gameplay is a separate issue I have already stated is something that need work, but isn't the reason healers get left out.


But that hasn't happened. Those who run with no healer probably ran with a healer in the past and changed it up. They weren't queuing into the DF so no change in numbers there. But, as I said, healers are still useful in DF to smooth things out.

So your argument here still basically boils down to “the titan egi clear is meaningful exclusion of tanks because ex is done through PF and PF has the ability to willfully choose to exclude classes while healerless casual content isn’t meaningful exclusion of healers because most casual content is done through DF and DF enforces a healer onto the party even if they aren’t needed and feel like a waste of space and because of this enforced DF the amount of people who actually organise healerless clears will never be a meaningful amount even though it would actually be easier if the system allowed it”

Do you not see how that’s the same thing except one is poorly hidden by the flawed system enforcing it? Would you have liked to be on JP and do ramuh ex in DF and have your DPS go “stay in DPS stance and don’t use agro moves titan is tanking” when you queued in as a tank? Because that’s exactly what healers deal with now

[Valence]

Depends on your perspective.



I mean, a healer is always going to contribute at the very least by doing damage, so it shouldn't be a case of whether you are going to contribute or not, it is a matter of how much you need to contribute.



With random groups, anything can happen, the DPS might do a dumb and die, or even the tank has a lapse of judgement. Your role as a healer then is to smooth out the run incase anything like that happens.



Egi tanking was, stick Titan in one spot and just baby him with heals, both from the SMN (Sustain) and healers (remembering, the AoE heals did affect the pets at this time). They already took less damage just for being an Egi and they didn't have to worry about the tank buster deleting them just because they didn't have the stacks. It was about as easy as you could make it. You also know that, given time, it would have become the norm. The tank players who were excluded would have then been told to play DPS or Healer. As for a SMN who didn't want to, you get a second SMN who did, the first SMN would then be a DPS SMN, the second the tank SMN.

I am actually amazed how you can compartmentalize both problems so much that in dungeons suddenly everything can happen, but in ex ramuh, it's suddenly so easy that "you just have to heal titan egi". I mean, in the majority of dungeons, the tank just has to press buttons as well. It's tomato and tomato. No wonder you saw them as two completely different problems...