FRU has been cleared without Tanks!

[Mikey_R]

The thing that irks me is that it's the uneven enforcement. Look at this for example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5MdZW1Ennw&t=1s

This was back when SMN had pets. Titan could tank ramuh ex without having to worry about doing the orbs to survive the tank buster. You did have to be careful about aggro management though. Then in one week after this was discovered, we got this. https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post2267548



From this, it was pretty clear that they didn't like that Ramuh EX was cleared without tanks.

So I wouldn't be surprised if they updated FRU to where you couldn't simply cancel out P1's tbs.

The difference is, one was completed by a group of very skilled players and isn't going to impact the general population of players at all. Your average group isn't going to go in without tanks after all.

The other, the Ramuh Ex example, was a detriment to the playerbase as a whole. Tanks were getting excluded from groups because they were an active detriment to the group. Titan Egi could tank everything and not worry about tank mechanics at all. That is where the difference lies.

[Supersnow845]

The difference is, one was completed by a group of very skilled players and isn't going to impact the general population of players at all. Your average group isn't going to go in without tanks after all.

The other, the Ramuh Ex example, was a detriment to the playerbase as a whole. Tanks were getting excluded from groups because they were an active detriment to the group. Titan Egi could tank everything and not worry about tank mechanics at all. That is where the difference lies.

The optimal strategy of excluding healers from casual content unless doing enforced DF parties is certainly a detriment to the healer population and all you hear is crickets

[Mikey_R]

The optimal strategy of excluding healers from casual content unless doing enforced DF parties is certainly a detriment to the healer population and all you hear is crickets

Ah yes, the false comparison. I did think about making a comment on healers, but decided against it, however, since you commented so nicely;

When is the last time you saw someone put up a PF for casual content, let alone go through the effort to exclude healers? You don't, as you said, they use DF, so already off to a bad start.

So, the next question, when was the last time your average DF excluded healers from (on release) Extreme, Savage or Ultimate parties? I haven't known any time and, just looking at the PF on Chaos at this time, 1 for Valigarmanda Ex, 2 tanks 2 healers, Chaotic, 2 tanks and 2 healers per alliance party, Sphene, 2 tanks 2 healers, M1S, 2 tanks 2 healers, Byakko Unreal, 2 tanks 2 healers.

Obviously, that is a small snippet at a specific point in time, but if healers (and tanks) were being excluded because it made life easier, you would have thought they would do so.

Compare that to Ramuh EX where NOONE wanted a tank. You would not find a party as a tank. Titan Egi directly invalidated an entire role with no downsides. Everyone could do it. That is not the case here where not having a tank or healer is a massive detriment for your average group.

Do note that this does not mean there is not an issue with the healers or even the tanks, it is just that using a specific clear from a very skilled group of players that the vast majority would never be able to do is bad evidence to bring forward that there is an issue.

[Maltothoris]

Heres the thing. The ramuh ex wasn't even wide spread. It was only recently discovered at the time the video was posted and theh clamped down fast.

[Supersnow845]

Ah yes, the false comparison. I did think about making a comment on healers, but decided against it, however, since you commented so nicely;

When is the last time you saw someone put up a PF for casual content, let alone go through the effort to exclude healers? You don't, as you said, they use DF, so already off to a bad start.

So, the next question, when was the last time your average DF excluded healers from (on release) Extreme, Savage or Ultimate parties? I haven't known any time and, just looking at the PF on Chaos at this time, 1 for Valigarmanda Ex, 2 tanks 2 healers, Chaotic, 2 tanks and 2 healers per alliance party, Sphene, 2 tanks 2 healers, M1S, 2 tanks 2 healers, Byakko Unreal, 2 tanks 2 healers.

Obviously, that is a small snippet at a specific point in time, but if healers (and tanks) were being excluded because it made life easier, you would have thought they would do so.

Compare that to Ramuh EX where NOONE wanted a tank. You would not find a party as a tank. Titan Egi directly invalidated an entire role with no downsides. Everyone could do it. That is not the case here where not having a tank or healer is a massive detriment for your average group.

Do note that this does not mean there is not an issue with the healers or even the tanks, it is just that using a specific clear from a very skilled group of players that the vast majority would never be able to do is bad evidence to bring forward that there is an issue.

“Absolutely nobody wanted a tank”

This clear wasn’t even well known and was patched in less than a week. You could genuinely have blinked and you wouldn’t have even noticed that clear drama pass you by

Let’s not pretend it nuked the entire tank role from orbit.

Healerless clears of casual content is far more widespread and acted upon than the ramuh clear. Not to mention that healers are invalidated even when they are present; which is somehow even worse, who wants to be physically present AND not needed

[Valence]

So, what's the threshold of affected population required for a change to occur then? And more importantly, even if the affected minority is "only a handful of people", does this legitimize the actual design and negates the issue?

[Mikey_R]

Let’s not pretend it nuked the entire tank role from orbit.

It was picking up traction and it was heading in that direction, if it wasn't sorted out, it would have ended up like that. Again, nothing like that has even happened to the healer role, otherwise you would have mentioned it.

You can do DPSless clears of casual content, you can do tankless clears of casual content, what is your point? Skilled players can negate roles. If we used to do full tank runs of dungeons back in SB, does this mean healers and DPS aren't needed?

It isn't the norm for casual content to be cleared by healer less parties, most do things through the DF and don't even bother with the PF, because it doesn't matter. What you do with your friends doesn't correlate to the wider playerbase, namely because you are likely more skilled than the rest. I can say from my experience as a mediocre healer, I often have times where I have to GCD heal, that DPS just got hit be an AoE and needs healing, the tank isn't as good and needs a bit more babysitting. This is closer to your average group, where a healer is needed.

Again again though, I'm not saying there aren't issues, what I am saying is that a clear by a very skilled group of players does not indicate a problem with the role itself, just like the tankless video does not show a problem with the tank role.

[Valence]

If nothing like that has even happened to the healer role, then what is this 1k page healer strike thread about? And all the traction it got through multiple online media at the time?

[Supersnow845]

It was picking up traction and it was heading in that direction, if it wasn't sorted out, it would have ended up like that. Again, nothing like that has even happened to the healer role, otherwise you would have mentioned it.

You can do DPSless clears of casual content, you can do tankless clears of casual content, what is your point? Skilled players can negate roles. If we used to do full tank runs of dungeons back in SB, does this mean healers and DPS aren't needed?

It isn't the norm for casual content to be cleared by healer less parties, most do things through the DF and don't even bother with the PF, because it doesn't matter. What you do with your friends doesn't correlate to the wider playerbase, namely because you are likely more skilled than the rest. I can say from my experience as a mediocre healer, I often have times where I have to GCD heal, that DPS just got hit be an AoE and needs healing, the tank isn't as good and needs a bit more babysitting. This is closer to your average group, where a healer is needed.

Again again though, I'm not saying there aren't issues, what I am saying is that a clear by a very skilled group of players does not indicate a problem with the role itself, just like the tankless video does not show a problem with the tank role.

My point is “you can do tank clears or DPS clears of casual content” yeah and they are garbage, slow and messy. You do healerless clears and you are faster and more efficient for no tradeoff. And it requires just as much skill as agro controlling the titan egi in ramuh ex

You can’t argue both that titan egi replacing tanks was so easy everyone was doing it simply because ex is by nature done in PF but also argue that removing the healers agency in casual content isn’t a problem because it’s mostly done in DF when they basically are exactly equivalent- a role being removed for little to no skill and a more optimal solution being reached

The only difference is that healers also get to be unwilling enforced burdens when DF demands a healer when it isn’t needed. So imagine ramuh ex, but titan egi is tanking but you still have to join as a tank only to have someone else do your role for you. It’s the worst of every world

[Mikey_R]

If nothing like that has even happened to the healer role, then what is this 1k page healer strike thread about? And all the traction it got through multiple online media at the time?

Have healers, in the vast majority of PF groups and even statics, been excluded from joining parties?

Now, I haven't read that entire thread, but from what I have gathered from the start, healers find the role unengaging and they don't feel needed in content. The first, unengaging role, that is sorted by rehashing their kit, give them different DPS options, Scholar can be a DoT healer etc. But that is a separate issue to the one where healers don't feel needed. Paradoxically, the role that was not included, does not indicate an issue with that role itself, it is an issue in the rest of the variables.

To put this into context, go back to Ramuh EX, if things were as they were on release, it would have been the norm for tanks to be replaced by DPS, or one DPS and 1 healer for safety. It wasn't the tanks fault that they were going to be excluded. The issue was the mechanics around Titan Egi. Titan Egi was the problem, not tanks, hence why Titan Egi got changed. Now, to be clear, this is all because Titan Egi could completely ignore the tank swap mechanic, you don't have the fail states of a tank failing to swap, or getting enough orbs, which also leads into more orbs being available than would normally be, making those mechanics easier as well. It was just easier to exclude a tank.

Going onto Healerless Ultimates/Savage/Extreme. The issue is not that healers aren't needed, you objectively need healing, it is just that the fight and other role kits are strong enough to invalidate the healer. It isn't the healer's fault they are excluded, it is everything else, whether that is too much healing on tanks or not enough damage going out that they cannot keep up. So, just like with the tank example above, the issue isn't healers, it is what is left. The difference, however, between this case and the one above, you aren't seeing more and more groups getting rid of healers, because it is still easier and safer to bring a healer. Hopefully, you can notice the difference, in one case, it was safer and easier to exclude the role that was being left out, in the other, it is safer and easier to INCLUDE the role that is being left out. The only reason healers are being left out is for the challenge.

Going into more casual content, if the healer feels useless, again, that isn't an issue with the healer, it is an issue with the environment they are in. Whether there is not enough damage going out or it can be too easily healed by other roles. It is the same as above. However, I split this up because the skill level required to negate the healer's efforts is lower. This also means that higher skilled players are going to have a much easier time invalidating the healer, making the issue seem worse than it actually is for that demographic. Go to lower skilled players and the issue isn't as prevalent. You are going to have that DPS get hit by an AoE, that tank might not mitigate as well as they should, the DPS might not be optimising damage as well making things take longer to kill (and thereby eating into resources). Again, for your average group, it is safer to go with a healer to account for those mistakes, than a group of skilled players who do not run into those issues.

Hopefully this sheds a light onto the differences between what happened to the tanks in Ramuh EX and the healer role as it is now. The same reasoning can then be used for the topic of this thread, the tankless clear of FRU. Is this an issue with the tank role? No, it is an issue with the environment. Is this going to be come the norm? No, it is still safer to bring tanks to the encounter. If there was an encounter that was explicitly harder with a healer, then you could compare that to the Ramuh EX scenario, however, that has never been the case.

This shouldn't come as a shock either, tank, healers and encounter design are all interlinked and there is an every changing balance somewhere that moves based on content and player skill level.