Raiders, why do you consider raiding just not memory games ?

[TaleraRistain]

Are you saying that XIV is more akin to sports drills than the actual sport itself?

I'm saying that XIV raiding has parallels to being on a sports team. You run the drills, you master the movements, and then you play the game.

It's not for everyone and it doesn't have to be. Fishing isn't for everyone. Crafting and Gathering isn't for everyone. Field content isn't for everyone. Mahjong isn't for everyone.

[ovIm]

I'm saying that XIV raiding has parallels to being on a sports team. You run the drills, you master the movements, and then you play the game.

But "and then you play the game" is not what is happening here. The "drill" is the game. You are not preparing for a sports event, you are learning a dance routine, which is the same every time. There is no moment to moment gameplay in this game, its all rehearsed. You can literally pre-plan your button presses to the second for every second of every fight, and you will win. The only two types of games I can think of where this is desired is rhythm games and some difficult kaizo mario romhacks.

It's not for everyone and it doesn't have to be. Fishing isn't for everyone. Crafting and Gathering isn't for everyone. Field content isn't for everyone. Mahjong isn't for everyone.

It becomes a problem when the game has lured in players through a different kind of gameplay, then changed how it worked, and now expects players to suck it up and do it their way. We can't compare Raids from ARR-SB to what we are being served now, and its only understandeable that people who have been here longer, who were interested because of how the game used to be back then, are complaining.
We are seeing how some of the game designers of the game have a deeply flawed understanding of their own game, and then double down on their decisions because they lack the creativity or courage to do something else. The "its not for everyone" argument loses its weight when considering all of that imho.

[Valence]

I agree, I don't find those fun either. Yet there are businesses that fully cater to those that do these things.
Since it seems to be one of their major focuses, XIV has clearly chosen this type of raiding to be what they cater to. You can argue whatever you want but it's ultimately subjective and this is just what their design philosophy is. It's not inherently a wrong thing to do, but it does cause issues like Dawntrail has where if you don't like raiding, there's not much there for you at all. Hopefully 7.2 is the magic Patch that was Promised and will deliver the content™ for people who don't like the raiding.

My concern is more toward veteran players that have actually played through a different type of game that ARR/HW XIV used to be, and got alienated by this modern sludge we're being served. Making a type of game, with all its woes and flaws, for a specific audience, fine. But stabbing your audience in the back by changing what the game is about, that's something else entirely.

I'm saying that XIV raiding has parallels to being on a sports team. You run the drills, you master the movements, and then you play the game.

It's not for everyone and it doesn't have to be. Fishing isn't for everyone. Crafting and Gathering isn't for everyone. Field content isn't for everyone. Mahjong isn't for everyone.

Yeah well, it used to be different, so I'm annoyed about it. Feels a little crass to tell players that "it's fine not to like it, it's not for everyone", when it used to be something they actually used to enjoy.

[TaleraRistain]

It becomes a problem when the game has lured in players through a different kind of gameplay, then changed how it worked, and now expects players to suck it up and do it their way. We can't compare Raids from ARR-SB to what we are being served now, and its only understandeable that people who have been here longer, who were interested because of how the game used to be back then, are complaining.
We are seeing how some of the game designers of the game have a deeply flawed understanding of their own game, and then double down on their decisions because they lack the creativity or courage to do something else. The "its not for everyone" argument loses its weight when considering all of that imho.

It's perfectly valid to not like how something changed and state that, but that's not what the OP is saying. The OP doesn't even do raids. The OP is looking at raiding, saying it's just a memory game that could be botted, and basically going why do you do it. So raiders in the thread explained what can be enjoyable about it. People can certainly say they don't enjoy that and why and ask SE to adjust things. And SE can either listen or continue on their course. Things change and sometimes we just have to deal with that. I lost my ARR and HW style relic questlines that I loved doing when they started getting tied to field content. I stopped doing relics as much because of it. It sucks, and I still give feedback about it to SE. I'll probably never get that back. I don't go screaming at people that like field content that they ruined relics for me, even thought they LOVE to blame anyone who doesn't like field content for why we didn't get it for an expansion. I blame SE and their decisions since they are the ones in control of that.

[caffe_macchiato]

This is not a troll post, let me get that out of the way, I just have multiple discussion/debate/argument (Depending on the persons viewpoint) on this.

It doesn’t matter if you don’t think you’re trolling, you violated the standard opinion set for FFXIV. Everyone’s self worth is tied to how well he or she raids. If you don’t raid, or have bad colors on the log website, people online will use that to invalidate your opinion about everything. And thanks to the developers, raiding is all there is to do in Dawntrail, so you have to like it. Otherwise people will make fun of you and, as seen elsewhere in these forums, they will dox you and mass report you here and in game for having bad logs. And if you quit FFXIV entirely? You’re seen as a quitter, a “Blizzdrone” and “don’t let the door hit you on the way out”. FFXIV is a pretty tough game. At this point the DDoSing is doing everyone a favor.

All for a Simon Says game.

[Red-thunder]

It doesn’t matter if you don’t think you’re trolling, you violated the standard opinion set for FFXIV. Everyone’s self worth is tied to how well he or she raids. If you don’t raid, or have bad colors on the log website, people online will use that to invalidate your opinion about everything. And thanks to the developers, raiding is all there is to do in Dawntrail, so you have to like it. Otherwise people will make fun of you and, as seen elsewhere in these forums, they will dox you and mass report you here and in game for having bad logs. And if you quit FFXIV entirely? You’re seen as a quitter, a “Blizzdrone” and “don’t let the door hit you on the way out”. FFXIV is a pretty tough game. At this point the DDoSing is doing everyone a favor.

All for a Simon Says game.

Most people don't give a shit that you have greys. It's only the opti (read: crit farming) community.

Log shaming is not even a minor problem. It's practically non-existent unless you ask for it (like if you bash people for being casuals when you yourself just get greys).

The real problem is that raid design has been held hostage by these people and every time these people cry about something because they can't just press the same buttons in the same sequence (or god forbid press their ranged attack button once in a ten minute fight and decrease their DPS by 0.3%!!!) the developers for some insane reason capitulate and sand over every possible source of discomfort.

[Valence]

It's perfectly valid to not like how something changed and state that, but that's not what the OP is saying. The OP doesn't even do raids. The OP is looking at raiding, saying it's just a memory game that could be botted, and basically going why do you do it. So raiders in the thread explained what can be enjoyable about it. People can certainly say they don't enjoy that and why and ask SE to adjust things. And SE can either listen or continue on their course. Things change and sometimes we just have to deal with that. I lost my ARR and HW style relic questlines that I loved doing when they started getting tied to field content. I stopped doing relics as much because of it. It sucks, and I still give feedback about it to SE. I'll probably never get that back. I don't go screaming at people that like field content that they ruined relics for me, even thought they LOVE to blame anyone who doesn't like field content for why we didn't get it for an expansion. I blame SE and their decisions since they are the ones in control of that.

Whether the OP raids or not (a forum profile tells you nothing unless people actually show their main), I have myself raided since SB and do agree with the base statement. There is nothing exciting in raiding, savage or ultimates, or criterion. Perhaps in the past we could at least find some manner of satisfaction in our jobs and mastering the actual management that came out of it, and even before SB have actual encounters with things to juggle through that weren't just binary body check DDR puzzles, but that's not the case anymore and hasn't been since SB/ShB.

If the idea is that some raiders have explained what they find enjoyable about it, then I vehemently disagree with them, and I'm not the only one here. But ultimately it's about tastes right? However I do think a lot of the points being raised are objective flaws of the system, whether one likes it or not.

[TaleraRistain]

Whether the OP raids or not (a forum profile tells you nothing unless people actually show their main), I have myself raided since SB and do agree with the base statement. There is nothing exciting in raiding, savage or ultimates, or criterion. Perhaps in the past we could at least find some manner of satisfaction in our jobs and mastering the actual management that came out of it, and even before SB have actual encounters with things to juggle through that weren't just binary body check DDR puzzles, but that's not the case anymore and hasn't been since SB/ShB.

If the idea is that some raiders have explained what they find enjoyable about it, then I vehemently disagree with them, and I'm not the only one here. But ultimately it's about tastes right? However I do think a lot of the points being raised are objective flaws of the system, whether one likes it or not.

They say it in their post which is the only reason I mentioned it.

My raiding firsthand experience only goes as high as knowing the mechanics well of DT EX3 as SMN, and having only just cleared P4S with echo. (I didn't bother trying to farm EX3 as my PF experience was a nightmare) however my friends who I chat with often range from savage clear to all ultimate's cleared to elitists.

[Valence]

I apologize, I mixed the OP with someone else.
I still fail to see how it is relevant either way, since the OP is asking if what their feeling about what it is, is true or not, and asking if it echoes actual raiders opinions.