patch 7.2 or next expansion

[Neft]

I see a lot of people harping "7.2 is their last chance" "this content is their last chance"

but it's not just the content that needs to be fun and enjoyable, even if it's not inovated on fully, it still needs to be fun and enjoyable and honestly some of yall need to sit down and think of something that YOU think would be innovating as in a unique never before done idea in X genre or in general (yeah, it's not easy).

from an indie dev perspective everytime i have an idea that i havent seen in a game i've personally played i look it up and i find the idea in some game that flew under my radar and then i get to go and playtest that idea and usually i learn why its not used, because it makes a bad player experience.

so while the devs could literally add whatever they want, they have to question "is this a good idea" "will the players enjoy it"

[Neft]

i get yall are sick of the same content heap or recycled content, but honestly, it's better than some of the alternatives.

as i see it right now FFXIV has three problem areas for player use.

1. Inventory size and i don't just mean consumables and such, that's not really a big issue just using the 2 retainers you have even if you craft assuming you don't hoard junk you don't actually need or will never use (im looking at you mr 7 retainers full of outdated materia)

but it's the weapon armoury/jobstone inventory thats piling up, while the jobstone one isn't really a big deal right this second, if they keep adding more classes it will be a major issue pretty soon.

what happens when one of these inventories are full? you can't swap classes without having a gear set for them saved (granted you should have gear sets made anyways for ease of swapping classes)

2. Stat Scaling - they just did an item squish/stat squish and here we are in DT bloated out just as much if not more than we used to be before the stat squish.

what even was the point of the stat squish if they were just going to juice us up again to then need to do it a second time????

it's just bad game design, why rebalance your game, to then need to re-balance it again, it wastes development time that could be spent you know, making content? fixing bugs? revamping systems?

3. Progression, not just gear, but also levels and this also ties back in with how the game scales.

if these areas aren't handled properly by next expansion, we might be looking at a level squish later down the road, which by the way since FFXIV is 100% story driven, depending on what level they set us back to would also bork a LOT of the MSQ quests.

and levels matter simply because they also tack on stats the difference between a level 47 and a level 100 is roughly 90-300 stat points in every single category.

but FFXIV is in a precarious state right now on a lot of angles and depending on how the next few patches are handled and how they execute the next expansion, there won't really be any turning back without 10x the amount of work, if they were to just work on fixing it now.

[Shougun]

Many ideas read good on paper and don't work out as intended, true, but also if say many times SE has actually listened to feedback but only to the shallow most extent. For example I was a huge fan / wish for the island like content, but what we got was very shallow and maybe great for some but bewildered me with Excel based gameplay.

Not saying your concerns can't be concerns but imo the core issues:

1. Gameplay roleplay is desperately neglected. This is a large encompassing concept but includes lack of job identity, lack of item identity, lack of world identity (open world is neglected to almost be only a corridor). You could I guess summarize it as the game is having an identity crisis.. but I think gameplay roleplay gives a stronger sense of direction. The R in RPG is dying each patch. There is still game, but it lacks the roleplay. Story is of course there but it's one pillar of a structure and when it falters.. well good luck.

2. Stat and content scaling easily create dull experiences and lack of job value. Where healer loses value (though they have tried to nudge it back), jobs become boring to play, and content becomes ignore all the mechanics.

3. Content is overly routine. As in DDR, highly predictable. Not much reaction as it is anticipation that creates quality play. Memorization wins, and add-ons become easily supremely useful.

4. May line up with 1. But SE adds limbs to the tree rather than bolster the tree itself. Content is set off to the side in such a way that you could never know it even existed.


My imo.

[VeyaAkemi]

Memorization wins, and add-ons become easily supremely useful.

Just one point that I'd like to address, currently automation plogons are sophisticated enough that, provided the correct data, they can execute any mechanic in the game flawlessly, it's not tied to the mechanics being on a set timeline, they read the data of what is going on in the game in real time, and execute accordingly, this is necessary for them to work at all, as mechanics do have a degree of variation even when they are on a schedule, so they would still be, as you put it, "supremely useful" even with perfect, fully reactive encounter design.

[Shougun]

Just one point that I'd like to address, currently automation plogons are sophisticated enough that, provided the correct data, they can execute any mechanic in the game flawlessly, it's not tied to the mechanics being on a set timeline, they read the data of what is going on in the game in real time, and execute accordingly, this is necessary for them to work at all, as mechanics do have a degree of variation even when they are on a schedule, so they would still be, as you put it, "supremely useful" even with perfect, fully reactive encounter design.

Ah, yeah I know of those too but I suppose I was attempting to draw a line at plugins that you might think could be in the game normally (like ones that relate to spikey plants) vs the ones that 'do it all for you' (essentially botting). The info is publicly available so I definitely am aware of some of them. I am impressed with them in a sense, and many are actually like "oh that definitely should be in the game", but also I think "DOH" *face palm* as SE helped create this situation by not creating a nice box that many addon creators would play in. Even guild wars 2 created a third party environment that played nice (they have an API setup), but SE's approach effectively forced the talent to go into the shadows- and there they went growing and growing until it's more of a shadow tsunami.

[Jeeqbit]

I see a lot of people harping "7.2 is their last chance" "this content is their last chance"

I think the content will be a bit harder (in the sense of the difficulty change between Asphodelos and Abyssos). I think they will be willing to do stuff like "enter a portal to kill adds" or "get transported to a cage" like in Alexander fights (because they mentioned this sort of thing specifically), but nothing widly out of the ordinary from the sort of changes we've seen already like "giant hole in the boss arena that affects uptime", "navigate a maze" or "stop attacking and try to move your character away from the middle or get killed" which were ideas they vetoed in Endwalker to maintain uptime.

Anyone hoping the game will suddenly be what they want in 7.2 is probably going to be disappointed, except the people who wanted another Field Operation.

some of yall need to sit down and think of something that YOU think would be innovating as in a unique never before done idea in X genre or in general (yeah, it's not easy).

I agree that being creative isn't always easy. At a certain point, even if they try to avoid it, you're going to be able to reduce their combat mechanics to basic principles like "AoE circle", "AoE cross", "AoE square", "AoE donut". That's why I say they are the bricks, nuts and bolts of the fight and that it's what they do with those bricks, nuts and bolts that matters.

For example, they could build lots of things with lego bricks. But if you just say "but they are the same old lego bricks", then you're never going to be happy with it.

They have actually been pretty creative across the game overall. For example, anyone that remembers how Copperbell Mines used to be, Copperbell HM, Sunken Temple (which is about to be changed, enjoy it while it lasts), old Sohr Khai. But even when they do something creative in the new dungeons, people farm said dungeon 100 times then, because they've done it hundreds of time, they no longer see it as creative.

so while the devs could literally add whatever they want, they have to question "is this a good idea" "will the players enjoy it"

That's really why a lot of things were removed over time. They ended up just being annoying in practice. For example, many players didn't like being unable to continue their (very inflexible) rotation, so they started to veto all ideas that affected uptime in Endwalker and people weren't happy with that.

Then we have ideas that people want back:

• multiple routes: people pick most efficient
• too many enemy packs: tanks feel pressured to pull them all despite being anxious that it's too many, then they wipe because it's too many (this was very common in ARR dungeons like Snowcloak)
• interruptable casts on enemy packs: 99% of tanks are unaware there are interrupts leaving all the heal burden on the healer
• not telegraphing mechanics: most players don't ever figure out the mechanics
• mechanics explained via status effects: many players (especially those that never played MMOs before) don't know to read status effect tooltips
• mechanics that affect uptime: uptime is affected, rotation flow ruined
• rotations too complicated such that a new player does it all wrong ie. wrong combos or casts.

I do think they need to find the right balance and that they went too far in the direction of making players comfortable. They could do these things:

• 1 route for efficiency, 1 route for challenge (and more reward/exp/maybe special coffer awaits with rare reward), 1 route for ease (for unconfident players)
• The "too many enemies" thing is sort of solve by having a "challenging route".
• the interruptable casts was a good idea on enemies in ShB. Stuff like stunning Morbols was always neat as well.
• I always felt bad that people didn't ever learn the mechanics, but I also enjoyed seeing them die and knowing that they felt the game had more to it than they understood. When these players die, they know there is a gap in their understanding and that's good in that it invites them to try to learn more if they want to.
• A "hard mode" and an "easy mode" is also a good solution. Even if it's a user interface setting that affects how many telegraphs display. People that don't want their hand held can disable the telegraphing and tutorial mode, allowing them to challenge the players that want challenging with more creative ideas.
• Uptime being affected isn't too much of a problem if the rotation's flow can be maintained properly. Umbral Soul, Motifs, Form Shift and Forbidden Meditation are examples.
• Making combos more intuitive and highlight what to press is a good solution but I think they went overboard with it (such as turning Warrior's cone AoE into a circle). If it needs to be this way, they can have multiple pathways or trees or ways to enable an advanced rotation for players that want it to be deeper.

[Shurrikhan]

I think the content will be a bit harder (in the sense of the difficulty change between Asphodelos and Abyssos). I think they will be willing to do stuff like "enter a portal to kill adds" or "get transported to a cage" like in Alexander fights (because they mentioned this sort of thing specifically), but nothing widly out of the ordinary from the sort of changes we've seen already like "giant hole in the boss arena that affects uptime", "navigate a maze" or "stop attacking and try to move your character away from the middle or get killed" which were ideas they vetoed in Endwalker to maintain uptime.

Anyone hoping the game will suddenly be what they want in 7.2 is probably going to be disappointed, except the people who wanted another Field Operation.
I agree that being creative isn't always easy. At a certain point, even if they try to avoid it, you're going to be able to reduce their combat mechanics to basic principles like "AoE circle", "AoE cross", "AoE square", "AoE donut". That's why I say they are the bricks, nuts and bolts of the fight and that it's what they do with those bricks, nuts and bolts that matters.

For example, they could build lots of things with lego bricks. But if you just say "but they are the same old lego bricks", then you're never going to be happy with it.

They have actually been pretty creative across the game overall. For example, anyone that remembers how Copperbell Mines used to be, Copperbell HM, Sunken Temple (which is about to be changed, enjoy it while it lasts), old Sohr Khai. But even when they do something creative in the new dungeons, people farm said dungeon 100 times then, because they've done it hundreds of time, they no longer see it as creative.
That's really why a lot of things were removed over time. They ended up just being annoying in practice. For example, many players didn't like being unable to continue their (very inflexible) rotation, so they started to veto all ideas that affected uptime in Endwalker and people weren't happy with that.

Then we have ideas that people want back:

• multiple routes: people pick most efficient
• too many enemy packs: tanks feel pressured to pull them all despite being anxious that it's too many, then they wipe because it's too many (this was very common in ARR dungeons like Snowcloak)
• interruptable casts on enemy packs: 99% of tanks are unaware there are interrupts leaving all the heal burden on the healer
• not telegraphing mechanics: most players don't ever figure out the mechanics
• mechanics explained via status effects: many players (especially those that never played MMOs before) don't know to read status effect tooltips
• mechanics that affect uptime: uptime is affected, rotation flow ruined
• rotations too complicated such that a new player does it all wrong ie. wrong combos or casts.

Tbf, a lot of these simply face a combination of insufficient balancing effort and the old "critical mass threshold" issue (a la installing public transportation, launching any multiplayer game, etc.).

• If one route is just hugely more reward-per-minute-efficient than others, it will be taken. You can solve that with balancing or randomization if the multiple pathways would still add more longevity than that degree of time spent in a whole different dungeon.
• If there's only one dungeon dangerous enough to kill a tank with a full pull, the average tank will try to full pull it, at least until month X since its release, simply because that's always been safe otherwise. Especially if an exact half would feel weirdly weak compared to a typical full pull.
• If interruptibles are rare, it won't seem worth learning how to deal with them. Look at proficiencies back when Chimera/Coil Turn 2 were typical content compared to now.
• Again, untelegraphed mechanics fail to be learned from only once people forgot how to do so. Though admittedly "too short to dodge anyways" indicators still provide a much happier middle ground.
• Tbf, those are crap, especially for controller users, and deserve to stay dead. Happier medium: subtle pop-up messages nonetheless immediately readable without needing any mouse/scroll-over.
• Uptime losses wouldn't feel ruinous if rotations were a bit more modular. (See the differences between the ppgcd penalty of a restarted combo between ARR and now.) That said, forced uptime loss generally just means less engagement unless one is at least sprinting full-tilt at something outside of gap-closer range; difficulty to maintain it, on the other hand, usually feels great.
• That's mostly on the player, as there is ample time to learn a sensible rotation that will garner some 97+% of optimal throughput (the issues really just coming down to awareness, rather than initial knowledge gap over less intuitive but memorizable matters). Though, the support systems in this game are pretty terrible -- clunky out-of-the-way side-content (HoN), obsolete side-content (Guildhests), or nothing.

[Gurgeh]

Addressing the post literally, it's never their "last chance", no matter what people say. Just look at WoW's recovery right now.
Unless, they mean last chance before they finally unsub for the first time, and every time someone unsubs you need to assume that could then be forever.
It is however the case, that the worse things get, the harder they do have to work to deliver an ever more 'standout' experience, in order to get word out and 'attract' people back.
The biggest problem they have, it's that it's looking like even if they manage to start doing everything they managed in Shadowbringers, that even that might not be good enough to 'keep' players now. Much less win then back.
*The game always had serious problems* and it was only an 'unsustainably exceptional' story that was rescuing it. Also, an explosion in the modded RP scene, which luckily is sustainable, but unfortunately it's not on its own enough for all but a very small minority (even fanatical mod RPers will suffer as more casual RPers leave, until only the most fanatical are left in their own gameplay bubble)

• In what way is 7.2 last chance?

I suggest:
That for some it is 'really good' improvement in MSQ. (more engaging plot, better use of characters, much better script, much better use of voiceovers)
While for others it is much more 'engaging' accessible (casual) battle content. But engaging is likely to mean including significant amounts of something very close to midcore, while also sustaining the super casual netflix dungeon runners.

[Mikey_R]

Not saying your concerns can't be concerns but imo the core issues:

1. Gameplay roleplay is desperately neglected. This is a large encompassing concept but includes lack of job identity, lack of item identity, lack of world identity (open world is neglected to almost be only a corridor). You could I guess summarize it as the game is having an identity crisis.. but I think gameplay roleplay gives a stronger sense of direction. The R in RPG is dying each patch. There is still game, but it lacks the roleplay. Story is of course there but it's one pillar of a structure and when it falters.. well good luck.

2. Stat and content scaling easily create dull experiences and lack of job value. Where healer loses value (though they have tried to nudge it back), jobs become boring to play, and content becomes ignore all the mechanics.

3. Content is overly routine. As in DDR, highly predictable. Not much reaction as it is anticipation that creates quality play. Memorization wins, and add-ons become easily supremely useful.

4. May line up with 1. But SE adds limbs to the tree rather than bolster the tree itself. Content is set off to the side in such a way that you could never know it even existed.

1. The problem with general statements like, 'lack of job identity' or 'lack of item identity' is really, that statement has no meaning. What is it about the items or the jobs or anything else that causes you to say it has a lack of identity. I try and get this information out of people, especially in regards to jobs. What would give jobs an 'identity' or, what does it mean to have an 'identity'. I have seen so many variation, some of which conflict with each other that such vague statements really mean nothing and I would say this is the biggest problem. People are quick to just type out buzz words but give no real context to what they actually mean. Even when Yoshi P said they were looking at job identity for 8.0, I had no reaction because, what does that actually mean?

2. Reduce the ilevel cap, add it to raids (both 8 man and 24 man) and trials, the stat scaling through the expansion then becomes a non issue. It is an easy fix, but even then, there are people who would complain about such a change because it would make things too hard.

3. Content has always been DDR. If you want to start shuffling the order of things, there are many thing you then need to take into consideration, including timing on tank busters, raid wides etc. that you start to see a pattern. Since there are so many different patterns, you just learn over time each one then that mystery is solved. Half the issue is the amount of times people run the content, it doesn't matter how RNG heavy it is, you will always find a pattern.

4. Going back to giving proper feedback, how could this be achieved? Or, more accurately, how do you propose these things get better attention?

[ACE135]

I see a lot of people harping "7.2 is their last chance" "this content is their last chance"

And many patches later they will still be there playing the game.