Ninja is unfun and has too many issues, please address.

[ShinyChariot]

Also OP needs to post his credentials. I don't want some rando who jobs in Casual all day giving their opinions.

[Mawlzy]

Also OP needs to post his credentials. I don't want some rando who jobs in Casual all day giving their opinions.

Papers! PAAAAAPERSSS!!!

Right, let's make sure we only get feedback from the pros, and keep the little people out of it.

My days.

[Bureda]

My main complaint with ninja this patch is how long the rotation is to get to Zeppo (along with all the other problems that have been mentioned since the job rework). Most NINs will usually have a mudra on "queue" so it essentially locks me out of Zeppo until I've unloaded my full kit and by then Zeppo has already expired. Before it wasn't the case when the rotation was much simpler with either a Raiju -> Mug -> Hyosho or some combination of those skills.

The new ability is more dangerous to NIN then the enemy because of how long the process takes. If there is reflects in the enemy team it becomes another hindrance because you get back amped up damage.

[Bureda]

Also OP needs to post his credentials. I don't want some rando who jobs in Casual all day giving their opinions.

I'm a nobody, just like you.

Expressing myself to the void because as a paying customer I don't appreciate half assed animations and clunky skill sets from a billion dollar global company.

[DendrielConcade]

NIN is at least pretty fine how it is IMHO, and at most deserves to be nerfed ult-wise and tuned in some parts. It is literally a "Competent at all, Master at none" class that is designed to not be as boring as the other classes having binary buttons that provide everything they need in one go which I think is nice that it has. I do want to state, that as a Casual Only Player, who has played several upon several times against and as NIN, these feel like proper things to say.

• Can casually be a ranged job for a short period, with pretty decent burst and consistent damage output, basically not needing to be stuck in the middle of brawls or erode at Ranged Classes resources potentially without even getting in super close range of them, let alone other Melees when most Melee's have long cooldown ranged options, or are designed to stick to targets.
• NIN having all their Skills as an instant cast on the fly would be horrid to play against. Even if the counterplay window is microscopic, hearing a NIN pop their Three Mudra is indicative they're about to actually do something. Instead of just instantly stun chaining you or just laying out a Hyosho Ranryu almost instantly after using Dokumori, so I believe it deserves that little gap at current.
• Being forced to pick from Offensive/Defensive is perfectly fine IMO, since Bunshin already applies a Barrier for a time so they do have a OFF/DEF ability already even if small. NIN has nuance compared to other classes, risk and reward and you gauge how much risk for how much reward.
• Shukuchi Stealth is annoying I will say, for how short it is, but it surely works properly, and the fact you can literally warp with it to a location if you're timing is good enough and still retain stealth even if you were getting hit is extremely satisfying/annoying. NIN already has tools that make having a speedboost on Shukuchi cast either redundant or oppressive with their long range burst potential and LIMIT that is comically stupid to fight against. If you really want to go in fast to burst someone with Stealth, you gotta use a resource for it, and I think that's kind of neat that it isn't binary.

Mind you with all of this listed, I still miss Shadowbringers NIN and would rather play that than this current iteration just because of how stupid it was to screw with people in Frontline, but we're not in Shadowbringers are we?

[Bureda]

NIN is at least pretty fine how it is IMHO, and at most deserves to be nerfed ult-wise and tuned in some parts. It is literally a "Competent at all, Master at none" class that is designed to not be as boring as the other classes having binary buttons that provide everything they need in one go which I think is nice that it has. I do want to state, that as a Casual Only Player, who has played several upon several times against and as NIN, these feel like proper things to say.

• Can casually be a ranged job for a short period, with pretty decent burst and consistent damage output, basically not needing to be stuck in the middle of brawls or erode at Ranged Classes resources potentially without even getting in super close range of them, let alone other Melees when most Melee's have long cooldown ranged options, or are designed to stick to targets.
• NIN having all their Skills as an instant cast on the fly would be horrid to play against. Even if the counterplay window is microscopic, hearing a NIN pop their Three Mudra is indicative they're about to actually do something. Instead of just instantly stun chaining you or just laying out a Hyosho Ranryu almost instantly after using Dokumori, so I believe it deserves that little gap at current.
• Being forced to pick from Offensive/Defensive is perfectly fine IMO, since Bunshin already applies a Barrier for a time so they do have a OFF/DEF ability already even if small. NIN has nuance compared to other classes, risk and reward and you gauge how much risk for how much reward.
• Shukuchi Stealth is annoying I will say, for how short it is, but it surely works properly, and the fact you can literally warp with it to a location if you're timing is good enough and still retain stealth even if you were getting hit is extremely satisfying/annoying. NIN already has tools that make having a speedboost on Shukuchi cast either redundant or oppressive with their long range burst potential and LIMIT that is comically stupid to fight against. If you really want to go in fast to burst someone with Stealth, you gotta use a resource for it, and I think that's kind of neat that it isn't binary.

Mind you with all of this listed, I still miss Shadowbringers NIN and would rather play that than this current iteration just because of how stupid it was to screw with people in Frontline, but we're not in Shadowbringers are we?

All that word vomit just to tell me you don't play NIN. They turned monk into a ranged melee too now that has absolutely no drawbacks, just like RDM. Those jobs are by far superior than NIN but sure, this job is in a healthy spot! Little bro is acting like he can use NIN abilities at any given time like you can with every other job in the game!
Here, do me a favour, go do some damage numbers quick maths and then on top of that time how long it takes for Hyosho to land.

[DendrielConcade]

All that word vomit just to tell me you don't play NIN. They turned monk into a ranged melee too now that has absolutely no drawbacks, just like RDM. Those jobs are by far superior than NIN but sure, this job is in a healthy spot! Little bro is acting like he can use NIN abilities at any given time like you can with every other job in the game!
Here, do me a favour, go do some damage numbers quick maths and then on top of that time how long it takes for Hyosho to land.

All this word vomit tells me you want a class that outclasses other classes, or a wilder scale rework of NIN. NIN will never be notably better unless they nerf its Limit, and streamlining Three Mudra by removing options. Also saying MNK is a ranged melee is comical, because they got 2 pew pews for 6k and 2 pew pews at 12k if you want to waste 2 AoE damage resources on poking as a diving melee, while NIN has 3 8k+2k with Bunshin(still have 2 charges after for Shukuchi > Assassinate > Zesho Meppo), a 16k single target ranged attack, and a 4k AoE with a DoT that ticks 4 times all at the range of 20y as a Melee. MNK and RDM were better than NIN before Dawntrail as well in Endwalker times, because guess what? Seiton Tenchu is absolutely crazy of a Limit, and holds back its basekit. If Limit got nerfed notably, which I highly doubt will happen as we've gone through basically a whole expansion with it being untouched, then maybe you could have instant-cast Mudra's and maybe see Shade Shift in some form as a free MIT or even an additional Mudra Cast allowed, but its not happening with how it is.

I will tell you this though, NIN still being subjected to horrid ability lag with Hyosho is stupid as hell and the fact they didn't pull back entirely on all of these slow as hell to hit abilities/skills/spells makes certain things like this unreliable as hell. The fact you can almost hit Assassinate after using Shukuchi at the same time Hyosho lands if you cast them basically at the same time is painfully stupid, but they think its better for the game that effects line up with damage at the cost of gameplay.

[Divinemights]

NIN is at least pretty fine how it is IMHO, and at most deserves to be nerfed ult-wise and tuned in some parts. It is literally a "Competent at all, Master at none" class that is designed to not be as boring as the other classes having binary buttons that provide everything they need in one go which I think is nice that it has. I do want to state, that as a Casual Only Player, who has played several upon several times against and as NIN, these feel like proper things to say.

• Can casually be a ranged job for a short period, with pretty decent burst and consistent damage output, basically not needing to be stuck in the middle of brawls or erode at Ranged Classes resources potentially without even getting in super close range of them, let alone other Melees when most Melee's have long cooldown ranged options, or are designed to stick to targets.
• NIN having all their Skills as an instant cast on the fly would be horrid to play against. Even if the counterplay window is microscopic, hearing a NIN pop their Three Mudra is indicative they're about to actually do something. Instead of just instantly stun chaining you or just laying out a Hyosho Ranryu almost instantly after using Dokumori, so I believe it deserves that little gap at current.
• Being forced to pick from Offensive/Defensive is perfectly fine IMO, since Bunshin already applies a Barrier for a time so they do have a OFF/DEF ability already even if small. NIN has nuance compared to other classes, risk and reward and you gauge how much risk for how much reward.
• Shukuchi Stealth is annoying I will say, for how short it is, but it surely works properly, and the fact you can literally warp with it to a location if you're timing is good enough and still retain stealth even if you were getting hit is extremely satisfying/annoying. NIN already has tools that make having a speedboost on Shukuchi cast either redundant or oppressive with their long range burst potential and LIMIT that is comically stupid to fight against. If you really want to go in fast to burst someone with Stealth, you gotta use a resource for it, and I think that's kind of neat that it isn't binary.

Mind you with all of this listed, I still miss Shadowbringers NIN and would rather play that than this current iteration just because of how stupid it was to screw with people in Frontline, but we're not in Shadowbringers are we?

Well, you certainly can express your opinion as a casual player
I do aware casual players are lacking of experience on how to handle Ninja on Frontline so I am not surprize.
However, I think this discussion is aim for non casual play as issues on reveals at higher game play.

Also, for me, your take on Shaowbringer version is over rated because I find it is only good for casual players to steal kill and running away.

[Bureda]

All this word vomit tells me you want a class that outclasses other classes, or a wilder scale rework of NIN. NIN will never be notably better unless they nerf its Limit, and streamlining Three Mudra by removing options. Also saying MNK is a ranged melee is comical, because they got 2 pew pews for 6k and 2 pew pews at 12k if you want to waste 2 AoE damage resources on poking as a diving melee, while NIN has 3 8k+2k with Bunshin(still have 2 charges after for Shukuchi > Assassinate > Zesho Meppo), a 16k single target ranged attack, and a 4k AoE with a DoT that ticks 4 times all at the range of 20y as a Melee. MNK and RDM were better than NIN before Dawntrail as well in Endwalker times, because guess what? Seiton Tenchu is absolutely crazy of a Limit, and holds back its basekit. If Limit got nerfed notably, which I highly doubt will happen as we've gone through basically a whole expansion with it being untouched, then maybe you could have instant-cast Mudra's and maybe see Shade Shift in some form as a free MIT or even an additional Mudra Cast allowed, but its not happening with how it is.

I will tell you this though, NIN still being subjected to horrid ability lag with Hyosho is stupid as hell and the fact they didn't pull back entirely on all of these slow as hell to hit abilities/skills/spells makes certain things like this unreliable as hell. The fact you can almost hit Assassinate after using Shukuchi at the same time Hyosho lands if you cast them basically at the same time is painfully stupid, but they think its better for the game that effects line up with damage at the cost of gameplay.

You can't even comprehend the values of MNK LB for example, it comes up so early that it wins you a fight and dictates the flow of the game. You can't even comprehend that RDM LB isn't just some AOE Damage, you use that once again to control the fights and control the flow of the game. You like your own words too much and think that NIN with LB 5-man chain every time.

Fact of the matter is both of those jobs have a bloated kit, able to damage at any position, able to defend at any given time. If you use a doton, you have to stand in it, otherwise you wasted a Mudra, if you use a Hoton under pressure, you HAVE to waste a mudra and the buff you get from it is non-existent, you're ONLY using it for the shield, not to benefit from the buff. That's not a problem for ANY of the melee jobs.

You're trying to give me criticism and advice but you can't handle it in return. You're just typing for the sake of it at this point.

NIN Kit is clunky and that's a fact. Stealth is useless and that's a fact, this game boasts too many AOE abilities. I want quality of life changes for this job, they have stupid-proofed nearly every job in the game.

[DendrielConcade]

Words

When did I downplay MNK/RDM Limit? I said both are better off because their Limits play off their combos, if you just MNK Limit it will not do a thing unless you have teammates, RDM Limit is basically just a single Flare cast from BLM if you use it purely offensively, and you're suppose to use them with your kit, and with your team in mind as MNK is stuck in the animation, and RDM only gets value out of theirs if its on top of them or in a team fight. NIN sees a target less than 50% and removes them, and can continue to remove them in a short chain, it has more snowball potential than both MNK and RDM Limit, but obvious does almost nothing on its own, though NIN has burst options to get there even if clunky and takes a lot more effort than other DPS. NIN also has a more bloated kit than RDM and MNK, since those two are more streamlined now compared to before, and also extremely binary on how they play(RDM Dives, Melee, Hop Back, Nuke, Pew Pew. Of course with some nuance on their barrier and silence if you really want to call that nuance.)(MNK walks forward and Melee combos, it really isn't that crazy, you are just slowly building up to your big nuke at the end of your melee combo adding in ranged attacks/gap closers/CC till you either drop a hard combo and Limit or Limit to catch someone in a bad space.) but that doesn't stop the stupidity of RDM having both a AoE Silence and an AoE Stun on a Diving Burst character.

Like what do you want to hear from this anyways? NIN is not going to be the fantasy you want in the state that it currently is. Its not a stealth assassin in PvE, and PvP is usually an over-exaggerated PvE kit, so its going to be using Mudras, and with how its kit is right now, making NIN have every Mudra Action at will to cast instantly and also making actions like Huiton and Meisui either not consume resources for Damage or squish them into other options that do damage or way too much value from one, while also having its Limit? You also want stealth to be useful with all of this too, which the only conjecture I can offer is immune to being exposed for 1s after warping so you don't immediately get removed from it, adding movement speed to it makes Huton redundant and adding extra duration still invalidates what I assume you don't like which is using it proactively because you get instantly knocked out of it unless you time it extremely well when nothing hits you. NIN would need a longer Limit cooldown, or entirely reworked Limit if we're going to squish Huton and Meisui into one Non-Mudra button, and it would probably also lose some bits off of its other Mudra's if everything else is retained.