Are Ultimates a major contributor to Job Design issues?

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

P10S didn't need those changes and neither did anything else, change my mind (I can't speak for TOP though, haven't done it).

I don't think we need any of the range extension in P10S either.

Few instances when healers had to be away from the DPS to resolve mech were very easily solved if the healer was able to figure out who they need to pre-shield/regen whoever's breaking the tether before moving to resolve their own mechanic responsibilities.

[Valence]

In theory, yes, practically, it tells me you never did the fight, yet you comment.

So let me explain. Aside from the big damage that the initial hit was doing, the person tasked with breaking the webs would also get a heavy dot. Unless you had a healer on the DPS platform, the likelihood of them dying was pretty high (even with mits), especially early in the tier when you did not have BiS nor echo.

On top of it, the entire fight was a healer check.

If strats were about sometimes getting roles split between the two platforms due to role stacks, stacks would not kill you. Healers could preshield the party. Support could pre mitigate. Healers could heal everybody once they were back mid as well, since nothing was literally going over HP threshold until then. Those mechanics were primarily body checks before anything, like most mechanics in this fight except HH. Alternatively platforms could also be made all light party based (see hector) if one really needed anyway. I'd actually kill to have funky arena layouts again where it's not just about a 8 man stack to heal and mitigate for once. I do miss Alex 4 or Alex 12 for this for example.
This puts the finger right where my problem is with the current mentality. People would rather complain that it's too hard than using the actual battle tools they have at their disposal. They're rather have SE water down the battle system even more because they can't deal with that, and instead have difficulty as a result get shoved even more dramatically into body checks, which P10S, shocking, was infamous for. If PF struggles, it's probably not because of whatever is left of the battle system.

It's impossible to change somebody's made-up mind nor do I really care all that much. While you are clearly the best person in the universe who can do every single mechanic flawlessly and without a sweat, the reality was completely different in PF and with average people doing that fight. Even if you are that good, the fights are never designed for the 0.01% of people but for the average who also makes a lot of mistakes.

PS: please join my re-clear parties. I am sick and tired to re-prog every single damn week, M3s and m4s with ppl in pf that can't still do those stupid fights after so many damn months.

Find a static where it doesn't happen? And if that's not a possibility, perhaps the problem you have is actually with the current battle design of those fights, where believe me, I'd be totally inclined to agree with here. DDR scripted dances suck for replayability and shelf life.

[Kohashi]

If strats were about sometimes getting roles split between the two platforms due to role stacks, stacks would not kill you. Healers could preshield the party. Support could pre mitigate. Healers could heal everybody once they were back mid as well, since nothing was literally going over HP threshold until then. Those mechanics were primarily body checks before anything, like most mechanics in this fight except HH. Alternatively platforms could also be made all light party based (see hector) if one really needed anyway. I'd actually kill to have funky arena layouts again where it's not just about a 8 man stack to heal and mitigate for once. I do miss Alex 4 or Alex 12 for this for example.

yes yes, all theory and none of the practice. Sure you could do that and yet they would still die especially mages. And mind you Dividing Wings 2 came right after Bonds 3 and PF could never do that shit clean... like ever.

As for Hector, he also had DPS right, and support left, so I am not sure what exactly you mean by light parties. Please link me to the raidplan/ video where he suggest Light parties or where this was done in such a manner.

In theory, you could do it since you have 1 DPS and 1 support picked, in reality, it would have been a shit show with people having to adjust based on prio. (snek memes prio much? and P8s trauma dumping that PF could also never get right?)

“It tells me you didn’t do the fight”

It’s really easy to act like you have a point when you can just accuse others of not doing the fight.

No offense but you are talking out of your ass now. Perhaps you did P10 normal but it was nothing like that the savage counterpart. P10s was a strong healer check. If you are up for the challenge and you think your comically large bubble would have covered all you needed, please consider doing Min Ilvl no Echo prog in P10S and get back to me after.

Also based on how you post and how pro you are, it should be a piece of cake no?

[Maltothoris]

We still didn't really need th range extension for p10s especially when for bonds 1 was when you could all go on one platform. And on wings 2, just put a regen on the dps who's going to right side if its not a tank or healer that gets the tether.

Edit: Dare I say, the only fight that the range increase was justified was p11s with how huge they made the boss' hitbox was and what the situation was for Dark and Light.

[Valence]

And mind you Dividing Wings 2 came right after Bonds 3 and PF could never do that shit clean... like ever.

Statics weren't much better off because Bonds 3 was a shit mechanic and people kept dying to it way too much. But the reason people failed was because of the DDR, not because of healing. Everybody is on the middle platform for Bonds 3 and the little cleaves before it, so it's not a matter of healing and mitigation range. Bonds 3 was one of the biggest blockers for the simple reason that it was a body check and Dividing Wings coming right after could barely be salvaged with a timed healer LB3 in the case of casualties (not always possible), since this mechanic was also a body check. This part had little to do with healing/mitigation.

As for Hector, he also had DPS right, and support left, so I am not sure what exactly you mean by light parties. Please link me to the raidplan/ video where he suggest Light parties or where this was done in such a manner.

In theory, you could do it since you have 1 DPS and 1 support picked, in reality, it would have been a shit show with people having to adjust based on prio. (snek memes prio much? and P8s trauma dumping that PF could also never get right?)

Hector had everybody on the left platform for Bonds 1.
If you mean for Dividing Wings 2 I do not remember having a single situation with 2 healers on the same side platform. We always had one on the left, and one on the right. It is possible all the statics I did it with did some prio, I do not remember at all. If you're complaining that this is too hard to do in PF, then again, this isn't a problem of healing and mitigation range, but a DDR mechanical problem.

[mallleable]

There will always be a push, and pull between fight design, and job design -- a tension. Balance, and design needs to be treated less like an end goal, and more like a process. I think the issue is that their process is kinda slow, and not as nimble as it could be so these tensions are felt by players for much longer than they should.

[Supersnow845]

yes yes, all theory and none of the practice. Sure you could do that and yet they would still die especially mages. And mind you Dividing Wings 2 came right after Bonds 3 and PF could never do that shit clean... like ever.

As for Hector, he also had DPS right, and support left, so I am not sure what exactly you mean by light parties. Please link me to the raidplan/ video where he suggest Light parties or where this was done in such a manner.

In theory, you could do it since you have 1 DPS and 1 support picked, in reality, it would have been a shit show with people having to adjust based on prio. (snek memes prio much? and P8s trauma dumping that PF could also never get right?)




No offense but you are talking out of your ass now. Perhaps you did P10 normal but it was nothing like that the savage counterpart. P10s was a strong healer check. If you are up for the challenge and you think your comically large bubble would have covered all you needed, please consider doing Min Ilvl no Echo prog in P10S and get back to me after.

Also based on how you post and how pro you are, it should be a piece of cake no?

Again it’s really easy to just pretend like I didn’t do the fight because it apparently makes your point stronger with zero evidence

The DPS that got the tether if you ran a regen healer put a regen on them, if you were the shield healer put a shield on them and use soteria/union. That mechanic is already heavy on mitigation that sticks to the boss anyway

None of this requires the bubbles to be enormous and I have no idea why you think that’s somehow the only solution to a problem you have that others didn’t. I could just as easily say the EW raid baby’s only solution to problems is to make healing easy when back in the day soil’s small radius was a core of how you handled the mechanic but you notice I’m categorically not saying that

[Voryn]

Increasing the range of heals and buffs always seemed to me like part of the goal to make it so each job’s tools always “work” (or at least work more often) and also not require any party coordination to be useful.

In terms of “always working,” you can expect your raidwide mitigation to affect all party members most of the time. Off the top of my head, DRK and GNB are lessening the idea of cooldowns also having other requirements to he used (DRK no longer needs 50 meter for Living Shadow, and GNB no longer needs as many carts to do both Gnashing Fang and Double Down). Ten Chi Jin now can’t accidentally be wasted by moving. The large hitboxes for raid bosses in Endwalker were allegedly to reduce friction, but I’d interpreted that as “let’s make sure tank and melee dps’s rotation always works as expected.” I’d count the new non-random Astrologian design as this type of change as well because they can always have Lord during raid buffs now.

In terms of party coordination there’s Living Dead not required any external healing to cleanse the debuff. And then older changes like Bard and Astro no longer have buffs that affect anyone else’s rotation. Warrior also never needs to ask for an Esuna now. In general, utility within a role is really similar now so you know what you’re getting from your teammates. Like the previous point, each job’s tools “always work” now because you don’t need to care about your team to use them.

I’m not a fan of this direction since it removes some of the satisfaction that can be gained from doing things right, but if this really is the goal then I can understand why. It reduces the skill gap between better and worse players (I don’t agree with this reasoning myself though, there should be better tutorials instead IMO), it probably makes balancing easier in high end content where it really counts, and it helps when most of the time we’re playing this game with random teammates, even sometimes in high end content.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

[...]Dare I say, the only fight that the range increase was justified was p11s with how huge they made the boss' hitbox was and what the situation was for Dark and Light.

If you're speaking of the one where we had tethers & need to be either close or far apart from our partners, I think only SGE would have trouble dealing with that.

WHM can use their Lilybell to negate the healing requirement.
SCH has plenty ways to deal with the mech, & I don't think it should come as a surprise that they're the best healer equipped to deal with "I need to be far away from party"-mechanic healing requirements.
AST can deploy charged horoscope right before the party make their move to their position. It will proc just as the first instance of damage goes off. It's tight, but it's possible. If they need more, they can drift the 20y Earthly Star to catch everybody, too.
SGE has... Zoe+E.Prog I guess? Lmao.

But frankly it shouldn't be a problem either. It should be fine for X healer to be 'worse' vs Y healer in one of the floor, as they can also be 'better' in another floor.

[Azurarok]

making pankardia a thing and adding shielding gimmicks to kardion heals would've worked and be far more unique from the faux fairy it is right now