changes to the game that would go hard

[BigCheez]

They're never going to get rid of gear treadmill.

The gear treadmill isn't the problem. I'm fine with ilvl increasing over time. The main problem is that there isn't anything to do with gear once you have it. It's just gearing for the sake of gearing.

A new patch releases. You buy/craft crafted gear, which completely invalidates all of your previous progression in a matter of seconds. You meld it. Done. Go do savage. Anything beyond that just makes the content trivial and doesn't serve any purpose other than parsing for the next 4 months.

In other MMOs, like FFXI or WoW, getting gear upgrades means that you're able to push into new content, which means you can get better gear, which means you can push into new content, which means you can get new gear, repeat. Progression actually exists. Gear has a purpose.

I think gearing in FFXIV would be much more interesting if, for example, when a new expansion releases, the best gear that we have access to immediately is dungeon gear from the highest level dungeons, then we use that to get the extreme weapon and accessories, then we use that ex gear to do savage, then we use savage/tome gear to do ultimate. It would be nice if we had something (like criterion/chaotic) in the 4 months between savage and ultimate, where we could take our savage/tome gear to get a few more pieces that we would need in order to do ultimate too.

When the next tier is released, crafted gear should not be better than previous BiS. Where other games have catch up gear, FFXIV has gear that fast tracks you to the end of the process.

If people are worried about crafting becoming useless, they could do something similar to what FFXI does and add some expert level crafts that are BiS items. The recipes for those could be added fairly late in the progression cycle. Your BiS for ultimate could be savage/tome/criterion/chaotic gear with a couple of crafted pieces that are very hard to craft, and the current crafted gear could still exist as catch-up gear.

[Collin_Sky]

I think gearing in FFXIV would be much more interesting if, for example, when a new expansion releases, the best gear that we have access to immediately is dungeon gear from the highest level dungeons, then we use that to get the extreme weapon and accessories, then we use that ex gear to do savage, then we use savage/tome gear to do ultimate.

This is exactly what happens now except we have crafted gear on Savage patch as well. Crafted gear exists to serve as a reset. To allow people who only care about progression or are behind for whatever reason to still be able to enjoy the content as it releases.
You are looking at gearing singularly from the perspective "I get my gear to do the next content with the gear" and not "I get my gear to push myself as high as possible in content that is already out" or "I get my gear to help out my friends who are struggling" or "I get my gear to play other jobs without griefing everyone else in the party"

The majority of the playerbase doesn't give a shit about Ultimates, so what are they even doing Savage each week for?

The answer is because fundamentally, gearing up and doing more damage is fun. Being able to do that on more than one class is even more fun. Gearing up multiple jobs should be faster. Idk why this is such a controversial thing.

[BigCheez]

This is exactly what happens now except we have crafted gear on Savage patch as well. Crafted gear exists to serve as a reset. To allow people who only care about progression or are behind for whatever reason to still be able to enjoy the content as it releases.

Nah, it isn't what happens now. What happens now is that an expansion releases, you turn your brain off for 3 hunt trains and buy the uncapped tome gear to do extreme, then you get extreme gear which serves no purpose other than parsing. Then you buy a set of crafted gear to do savage, which rewards you with savage and tome gear which serves no purpose other than parsing. Most people stop here and don't do ultimate on content. They might do it later but we'll have access to higher ilvl gear and you won't need savage gear by then. For the people who do prog ultimate on content, you do actually get some mileage out of your tome/savage gear but the 4 month delay between savage and ultimate completely removes any feeling of progression.

The problem is that there is no progression from content to content. The progression is "buy easily accessible gear for content > do content". Progging ultimate on content is the only exception to this.

I'm fine with crafted gear allowing people to catch up but it shouldn't be mandatory and should not replace your previous BiS. It should be the same ilvl as previous BiS.

You are looking at gearing singularly from the perspective "I get my gear to do the next content with the gear" and not "I get my gear to push myself as high as possible in content that is already out" or "I get my gear to help out my friends who are struggling" or "I get my gear to play other jobs without griefing"

Yes, I'm looking at gearing from the perspective of it being functionally beneficial in-game, rather than tangentially beneficial in the FFLogs metagame. Pushing damage in content by being better at the game is inherently more interesting than pushing damage by getting gear that makes the content easier.

The majority of the playerbase doesn't give a shit about Ultimates, so what are they even doing Savage each week for?

The answer is because fundamentally, gearing up and doing more damage is fun. Being able to do that on more than one class is even more fun. Gearing up multiple jobs should be faster. Idk why this is such a controversial thing.

Because, as garbage as it is, the illusion of progression is the only progression that the game affords them. There's nothing else to do. Reclearing for gear so you can play content without grey parsing is better than clearing once and coming back in 8 months.

[Collin_Sky]

Nah, it isn't what happens now. What happens now is that an expansion releases, you buy the uncapped tome gear to do extreme, then you get extreme gear (which serves no purpose other than parsing). Then you buy a set of crafted gear to do savage. Most people stop here and don't do ultimate on content. They might do it later but we'll have access to higher ilvl gear and you won't need savage gear by then. For the people who do prog savage on content, you do actually get some mileage out of your tome/savage gear but the 4 month delay between savage and ultimate completely removes any feeling of progression.

The tomes for that uncapped gear come from dungeons, which also drop the accessories you need before you can even get the uncapped tome gear. It’s essentially the same process.

I'm fine with crafted gear allowing people to catch up but it shouldn't be mandatory and should not replace your previous BiS. It should be the same ilvl as previous BiS.1

Even if it were the same ilvl, it would still be stronger because 5 materia slots > 2. Granted, some pieces have less desirable substats like SKS or TEN, but in general, more slots still provides a clear advantage.

Yes, I'm looking at gearing from the perspective of it being functionally beneficial in-game, rather than tangentially beneficial in the FFLogs metagame.
Because, as garbage as it is, the illusion of progression is the only progression that the game affords them. There's nothing else to do. Reclearing for gear so you can play content without grey parsing is better than clearing once and coming back in 8 months.

But wanting to improve my performance isn’t only about parsing. I’d still strive for better gear even if logs didn’t exist. Saying the only reason to gear up is for FFLogs is incredibly reductive.

I’ve offered plenty of reasons why gearing multiple jobs at a decent pace is reasonable, yet the only response you've provided is "lol it doesn't matter you don't really need the gear just stop caring about your parse". I actually enjoy the content we have, I’d just like to play it on other jobs without feeling like I’m griefing the party because I want to play something that isn't my main.

[BigCheez]

The tomes for that uncapped gear come from dungeons, which also drop the accessories you need before you can even get the uncapped tome gear. It’s essentially the same process.



Even if it were the same ilvl, it would still be stronger because 5 materia slots > 2. Granted, some pieces have less desirable substats like SKS or TEN, but in general, more slots still provides a clear advantage.



But wanting to improve my performance isn’t only about parsing. I’d still strive for better gear even if logs didn’t exist. Saying the only reason to gear up is for FFLogs is incredibly reductive.

I’ve offered plenty of reasons why gearing multiple jobs at a decent pace is reasonable, yet the only response you've provided is "lol it doesn't matter you don't really need the gear just stop caring about your parse". I actually enjoy the content we have, I’d just like to play it on other jobs without feeling like I’m griefing the party because I want to play something that isn't my main.

Most people just run a couple of hunt trains for enough tomes for a full set of gear + clusters for the materia to meld it. Pretending that we're doing anything other than a very short mindless zerg for that gear is a little disingenuous.

Get rid of the overmeld slots or make crafted gear a few ilvl lower than previous BiS then. This feels like a very easily solved problem.

I completely agree that improving at a game is one of the most fulfilling parts of playing them but equipping a new stat stick doesn't really factor in to that. Optimising strats and ability usages are the interesting parts of an MMO. Gear should be a means to an end but FFXIV has no end.

The fact that you consider running savage without savage gear to be griefing demonstrates the problem with gearing in FFXIV better than anything that I could say. In the nicest possible way, I think you've been playing FFXIV exclusively for too long, have become XIVbrained and can't see past the status quo. I'd recommend trying another MMO, like XI or WoW, if only for a short time to remind yourself what meaningful player power progression in an MMO actually looks like. Getting new gear is infinitely more rewarding when it will allow you to do something that you weren't able to do before. Getting new gear to make the content that you're already able to do easier, and then throwing it in the trash and replacing it with a new freebie for the next piece of content, is just pointless busywork.

Working your way through ambu to omen to dyna and beyond in FFXI is fun. Pushing through heroic/mythic or pushing M+ keys in WoW is fun. Doing savage to get savage gear so the same boss you were already able to kill dies 6 minutes into the 10 minute fight is not particularly interesting or fun. The fulfilling part is supposed to be the progression that comes as a result of that upgrade but it's absent in FFXIV.

[Collin_Sky]

The fact that you consider running savage without savage gear to be griefing demonstrates the problem with gearing in FFXIV better than anything that I could say. In the nicest possible way, I think you've been playing FFXIV exclusively for too long, have become XIVbrained and can't see past the status quo. I'd recommend trying another MMO, like XI or WoW, if only for a short time to remind yourself what meaningful player power progression in an MMO actually looks like. Getting new gear is infinitely more rewarding when it will allow you to do something that you weren't able to do before. Getting new gear to make the content that you're already able to do easier, and then throwing it in the trash and replacing it with a new freebie for the next piece of content, is just pointless busywork.

Working your way through ambu to omen to dyna and beyond in FFXI is fun. Pushing through heroic/mythic or pushing M+ keys in WoW is fun. Doing savage to get savage gear so the same boss you were already able to kill dies 6 minutes into the 10 minute fight is not particularly interesting or fun. The fulfilling part is supposed to be the progression that comes as a result of that upgrade but it's absent in FFXIV.

For what it’s worth, I still play FFXI regularly. I 6box and can fully clear Ody C/Sortie on 3 of them (working on the other 3 now). I’ve more or less completed the game, which is why I'm doing 3 more chars. I love FFXI's endgame gearing progression. Furthermore, I also agree that FFXIV offers very little content by comparison, which is why I keep returning to FFXI. Unlike FFXIV, FFXI doesn’t heavily restrict how you gear up, and it offers far more than just two pieces of content for progression.

In FFXIV, I’m left with no real choice but to run the same content repeatedly, either to help friends or just for fun and to push for self improvement. But at minimum ilvl, neither of those is really possible. I love FFXIV's combat, but I can't enjoy it when I don't have any goals.