Would you consider greedy DPS Mechanics on Tanks/Healers good or bad?

[Ath192]

This has nothing to do with the MP and TP system

And jobs that use MP are too tired/don't have enough aether to use spells. Literally the same concept.

Yeah... I think I'm gonna call it here. Good luck though.

[Shurrikhan]

I mean, clearly there were enough people that felt and found them different that the devs kept MP and got rid of TP right. So it's not that crazy some do see a difference. Unfortunately, they have made MP more and more irrelevant each xpac. There are some instances where on a full BIS, full DPS Sage build, MP is slightly negative but assuming you don't have to raise you can still keep full uptime without running out. But thats a total niche scenario and not really representative of how obsolete MP has become.

They didn't get rid of MP while keeping TP for any reasons specific to MP or TP themselves. They simply combined Gamewide-Gauge #1 and Gamewide-Gauge #2 into one thing and essentially removed resource concerns from all non-rez-capable classes, with the caveat that, because they're in the same role as Raise-capable classes, certain non-Raise-capable casters will also have to hit a bloat-button on CD (Lucid).

I.e., resource maintenance was purged from the game (replaced with, at most, hit bloat skill on CD) and we were left with some rare cost to using AoE heals in old content (pre-oGCD-heal-bloat) and... effectively... rez charges.

@ Mikey: That said, Mana Shift came at cost to one's own MP and used a % of current MP instantly, while Goad had no cost and gave a flat amount over time. Goad was therefore on paper --and often enough in practice-- far simpler/foolproofed an ability. I can see why one would prefer the design of Mana Shift over Goad.

(@Ath: That just has nothing to do with MP over TP, at least in TP's ARR+ iteration, which was just a duplicate of MP but for non-casters. The last time they were different, even Monks used MP for stances and TP was generated from basic attacks.)

Energy drain, old tank stances and cleric stance, Shadowflare, pretty much any healer GCD dps tool, etc. Basically anything that trades a Tank/Healer's ability to do their role for personal damage gains.

I believe this sort of risk-reward system's usually seen as a good design in many games, but here it seems to be a bit of a mixed bag since you could be on the receiving end of another player who took it a step too far, and this game's content often heavily punishes parties for an individual's mistakes, especially with those roles since they're supposed to be the party's lifeline.

I personally think it's good to have, and I think at least one job for both roles could be designed around the concept for healthier job variety, but I've been wondering what others think of it.

I don't think it'd hugely make a difference if healers and tanks unique outputs were constantly pushed, but... they aren't. And so having alternate direct-contribution spenders available to them for when there's not enough incoming damage to meaningfully leverage their unique outputs seems then to be a clearly good idea.

That said, I don't think it needs to be a black-and-white distinction of role-output vs. damage, nor does it necessarily need to require a additional buttons.

For instance, let's say that --rather realistically-- nuking an enemy as they're winding up a swing might suppress said swing, while nuking them while their defenses are beaten down might cause greater damage. Just with that difference in timing, bankable skills would allow you a degree of control between pure offense and mitigation and therefore your party a lever over risk and consequent reward. With how little suppression can you survive in order to burn the unit down earlier (thereby, say, skipping one of its key skills)? Or, as to be less dependent on bankability (and/or anti-synergy/redundancy between stagger and raidbuffs), allow positionals an impact, with attacks from certain positions at certain times further pushing towards stagger, immediate suppression, or immediate damage/armor-loss/max-HP-reduction (on an self-healing/rezzing enemy).

Or, simply allow for most things to be more naturally hybrids in keeping with their names, themes, and animations -- perhaps even splitting potency output between healing and damage based on how wounded the affected allies are, etc.. Let a CNJ, for instance, have a variety of elemental gauge-spenders such as Quake (more purely suppression and damage, but also able to LoS, knock back, or knock in/collect enemies), Tornado (damaging but also crowd-controlling or shielding against outside projectiles coming in and obscuring allies within), Downpour (slowing enemies but cleansing and --if enhanced-- cumulatively HoTing allies), etc. Let a SCH (or maybe better SGE) overpower a shield to cause it to also reflect damage back at its attacker. Let us leverage what is apparently there so that the effects seem to more naturally flow from theme instead of the theme just remaining a reskin of mostly identical effects.

[Ath192]

They didn't get rid of MP while keeping TP for any reasons specific to MP or TP themselves. They simply combined Gamewide-Gauge #1 and Gamewide-Gauge #2 into one thing and essentially removed resource concerns from all non-rez-capable classes

I would disagree with you here, simply because the evidence points to physical moves no longer cost TP while all spells still cost MP. If they had been combined all abilities would cost MP, regardless of them being melee but we don't see that. I don't understand why people are so willing to die on this hill lol. Just because the MP system has been nerfed to almost irrelevancy doesn't mean its gone like TP, and resource concerns are still a thing even in non rez classes. I haven't played DRK this expac but I'm pretty sure you can still overgreed and not have enough MP for a blackest night with upcoming tankbusters.

My take on this is that physical fatigue is annoying, in the same way where some games require you to consume food or you starve to death annoying, but magical abilities come with an expectation of a mana pool that gets depleted upon overuse, so there is an element of strategy and planning caster classes generally enjoy planning out. I would bet a lot of people would be really confused if SE got rid of MP in FFXIV instead of being relieved like when they got rid of TP.

Now, if you go extremely basic, you could say they are functionally the same, like a previous user said here, but to say there is no difference in them would be like saying oh well there is no difference in melee classes, they're all just DPS classes that hit the boss up close. And in a scenario where 2 people output the exact same kind of damage even though they are a DRG and a MNK (due to crit variation and mistakes, clips , etc...) there wouldnt be a difference functionally to killing a boss, sure. It's just a number. But players playing those classes certainly wouldn't feel that way about it, whether it be aesthetics, APM, or lore. Just like I don't feel like magic spells and physical attacks are identical.

You do have to draw a line at where you going to make a distinction personally, instead of just going any video game is a means of wasting time, therefore they all are identical to me. There are some you like more than others.

[Shurrikhan]

Rez and heals cost MP. All else is effectively net neutral or even positive given Lucid on CD, which is noticeably different from before TP's removal (at which time even purely maximally MP-efficient spell casting was at least mildly net negative).

Meanwhile, MP on DRK is just 3.333 charges shared across EoS, FoS, and TBN, and MP on PLD is just 5 charges shared across its every spell, each with CDR from certain skills.

There is otherwise no difference between one exclusive pool of resource and another unless one uses both and is therefore forced to rotate or balance between skill categories.

By lore, every attack thrown by anyone with an inkling or martial practice utilizes aether, which is identically depleted by physical and magical actions. By lore, the chief differences lie only in transiently deposited energy/potential, differing between the body's "channels" and its actual muscles and that aether can be sacrificed to conduct yet more potential through said channels (sacrificing a bit of internal aether to draw far more environmental aether through oneself), but even that magical distinction varies with discipline and the game has never and most likely will never create any gameplay related to that distinction. Instead, you have net neutral with bloat button and net neutral without, with any actual resource management replaced by, in essence, reset-on-death charges of Rez, Conf combo, Edges, or Fire casts.

[Ath192]

Meanwhile, MP on DRK is just 3.333 charges shared across EoS, FoS, and TBN, and MP on PLD is just 5 charges shared across its every spell
...
There is otherwise no difference between one exclusive pool of resource and another unless one uses both
...
By lore, the chief differences lie only in transiently deposited energy/potential
...
but even that magical distinction varies with discipline

So there's the differences you see, and I've explained the differences I see. It's all good.

[Shurrikhan]

As of the removal of TP, none use both, and before that, only 1 has meaningfully done so since 1.23 (e.g., as anything more than a charge system for a single set of skills that lacks even incidental interaction with the opposite gauge). The lore distinctions are and always have been utterly divorced from gameplay and are more related to jobs than to MP as a whole.

You could make the point that MP and TP could be made fundamentally different (though you'd equally have to note then that, say, SAM TP is fundamentally different from Monk TP), but XIV hasn't made any such distinction in-game at the least since Sprint was rehauled, or, more meaningfully, since 1.17 (as post Yoshida 1.x made TP redundant to weaponskill CDs).

[VeyaAkemi]

I think the removal of TP and keeping MP had less to do with balance, and more with series theming: MP exists in most Final Fantasy games, barring extremely old ones like early releases of FF1 that used a D&D-like spell slot system, that wouldn't work for a MMO anyway, therefor, MP must exist in FF XIV, with Lucid Dreaming existing so the FF flavor can exist while removing the resource management aspect of it.

It's the same reason an effect like Silence still affects only Casters, and physical Jobs can use their Weaponskills freely, because Silence has historically only affected spells, so it leads to Casters being unfairly targeted in some, admittedly rare, instances, always amuses me that Silence is usually Esuna-able too, like damn, I can use a spell to get rid of the status preventing me from casting spells? that's just thrilling isn't it?

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

Pacification exists as a form of 'silence' to physical jobs. But they're less seen vs silence IIRC.

[Shurrikhan]

I can't remember players ever being Pacified in any mainstay content since 1.x (e.g., outside of PotD, though I thought that Silences simultaneously, and maybe... Hildebrand), though Shield Swipe could previously pacify enemies, iirc. Tbf, though, I could have sworn no true Silence exists any longer in player kits in PvE, either -- that having been replaced with Interrupt. At this point Silence is mostly just in very old content, Pacification done and gone, and virtually all player-affecting CC just Stuns, no?

Edit: Forgot about Amon; don't think I've ever been hit by his Pacify.

[VeyaAkemi]

I bring Silence up because it is commonly seen in World of Darkness, specifically the Slime adds for the Five-Headed Dragon will cast a raid-wide Silence if they aren't killed fast enough, every time it happens and I am on a Healer or a Caster, it's just "Cool, cool, I guess I am not doing anything for the next 10 seconds...", it's not a big deal by any stretch, it's just annoying, and there is very little you can do to prevent it other than targeting the Slimes and hoping enough people also do it.